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Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

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Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#171

Post by tamana »

radlad wrote: post #46
danso wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't have much reasoning on the specifics of OSX to macOS as they've been recently revealed, just the general skepticism that one operating system could achieve the best of both systems...in the same way that Windows 8.1, in my limited usage, was a fairly compromised experience. But I'm saying that as someone who can't imagine how skilled engineering could satisfactory thread the needle...and I'm giving sho…

I don't think macOS is targeting touch screens -- and it's not a combination of OSX and iOS. It's simply a renaming of the OSX system.

Specifically because iOS TEN is coming out, so they have to get rid of OS TEN

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#172

Post by jbermudes »

schoen wrote: post #26
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the invention of the GUI killed the dream of mainstream programming. If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. I really hope that raspberry PI gets more mainstream appeal as time goes on. I fear the separation between coder…

I believe as you do and in basically the same terms, but, having had forms of this discussion for much of my life, I've encountered a counterargument that I thought I'd bring up as a devil's advocate: > the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus Isn't "the way computers actually work" at a fundamental level about electrical engineering, or at least about machine…

> Isn't "the way computers actually work" at a fundamental level about electrical engineering, or at least about machine instructions?

I agree, which is why sometimes I think perhaps a toy assembly language might be a neat experiment from a pedagogical point of view.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#173

Post by jdlshore »

plg wrote: post #32

I took my kid to one of these last year. It was fairly useless. They drag around little action-icons into a list to make an animated character move around and do stuff. My 11-year-old was bored stiff. Edit: PS the Apple Store employee who ran this thing (he was a very nice guy) admitted he had zero coding experience himself

Was the programming language Scratch[0]? Because Scratch is flippin' awesome. My 8-year-old programs a new game in it every week, without prompting or coaching from me. They're getting progressively more sophisticated, with variables, loops, and everything.

And yet his first exposure to it was dragging little icons into a list to make an animated character move... which is exactly the right material for a 90-minute course presumably designed for total neophytes.

[0] https://scratch.mit.edu/

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#174

Post by kalleboo »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #17
danso wrote: post #14

Ironically, I sometimes fear Apple would be the harbinger of programming's death, what with how much can be done via consumer-friendly app and touch-screens. It didn't help hearing about OSX becoming macOS, which would be well in line with a dystopian future in which the only people who need to know about plaintext and file systems are the full-time Apple programmers. But this sounds like a great initiative...and als…

I think the invention of the GUI killed the dream of mainstream programming. If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. I really hope that raspberry PI gets more mainstream appeal as time goes on. I fear the separation between coder…

I don't think the GUI has anything to do with it.

> If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt

Maybe programming should start resembling GUIs more, instead of the GUI resembling programming more?

The only reason I got into programming was by messing around with HyperCard as a kid. HyperCard had an excellent learning curve. You could just use the pre-built stacks (stuff like an address book). Then you could start editing the controls (adding a field to the address book), then start using the prefab button generator or copying pre-coded buttons from sample stacks (say, to add a button to go to your own card in the address book). Then start hacking away at the scripts in the buttons (scripts that resembled english better than any language I've seen since). And this thing came with every Mac.

Today, you have to decide "I want to learn to program", look up resources, maybe do a tutorial. The only thing we have today that's close to "tricking" people into programming without them deciding to start programming is Excel spreadsheets. That's probably the #1 programming environment today.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#175

Post by reedlaw »

As much as I want to cheer this it leaves me with the sour thought that modern Apple robbed kids of the joys the original Apple afforded. Growing up with the Apple II+ in our home I was programming from an early age because that was the primary activity you could do with one right out of the box. Look at the loops you have to run through to unleash the power of the iPad. Developer accounts, EULAs, closed APIs. Where is the modern equivalent of computer clubs where most members could code or at least were interested?

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#176

Post by andyjdavis »

joshaidan wrote: post #77
plg wrote: post #32

I took my kid to one of these last year. It was fairly useless. They drag around little action-icons into a list to make an animated character move around and do stuff. My 11-year-old was bored stiff. Edit: PS the Apple Store employee who ran this thing (he was a very nice guy) admitted he had zero coding experience himself

When I was a kid I learned programming by going to the library and borrowing books on programming. This was, of course, before the days of the Internet where you can use google to find those resources. My biggest challenge was trying to find the tools I needed, i.e. a C/C++ compiler, PASCAL interpreter, assembler for my Commodore 64, because it wasn't like I could go on the internet and download them, and there were…

I wonder how the change in scarcity of resources will affect people's relationship with these subjects. Similar to yourself I grew up in an environment when information and software was hard to come by and thus highly prized. Books read beginning to end, games played to completion (often repeatedly), things like programming tutorials from print magazines completed then picked apart over several hours.

Part of me worries that making it all easily available will actually kill off kid's interests in subjects/skill sets that require some level of devotion before you see real rewards.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#177

Post by pjmlp »

ralfd wrote: post #55
jshevek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, given the level of competence of the staff at Apple stores, it seems unlikely there could be a worthwhile coding camp at that venue. Apple would need to bring in some much higher caliber people.

Urgh, it is basics of coding course for 8 year olds. What do people expect? Albert Einstein giving lessons?

These books used to be used by children:

http://www.atariarchives.org/

http://www.worldofspectrum.org/books.html

So if 8 year olds could grasp Basic, Z80 and 6502 Assembly, I guess adults in a computer shop should know their stuff.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#178

Post by pjmlp »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #17
danso wrote: post #14

Ironically, I sometimes fear Apple would be the harbinger of programming's death, what with how much can be done via consumer-friendly app and touch-screens. It didn't help hearing about OSX becoming macOS, which would be well in line with a dystopian future in which the only people who need to know about plaintext and file systems are the full-time Apple programmers. But this sounds like a great initiative...and als…

I think the invention of the GUI killed the dream of mainstream programming. If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. I really hope that raspberry PI gets more mainstream appeal as time goes on. I fear the separation between coder…

Not everyone likes the UNIX prompt.

Some of us rather enjoy the way Xerox PARC envision the future of computing.

On that vision IDEs and REPLs like the Swift Playground are the way it should be, no need for a UNIX prompt.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#179

Post by danso »

NEDM64 wrote: post #161
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the invention of the GUI killed the dream of mainstream programming. If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. I really hope that raspberry PI gets more mainstream appeal as time goes on. I fear the separation between coder…

Why do people think that having programming skills is something that people of the future need? It's useless for most of people, and for many people who know how to program, is also useless for them too, as most if not all their needs are already fulfilled by someone else. I think it's more important for the younger generation to learn about other things, some of them I do not know. Things like agriculture, law, musi…

That's a pretty limited way of thinking about programming, which is basically the capability to translate intent to an autonomous, tireless machine.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#180

Post by speby »

andyjdavis wrote: post #176
joshaidan wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid I learned programming by going to the library and borrowing books on programming. This was, of course, before the days of the Internet where you can use google to find those resources. My biggest challenge was trying to find the tools I needed, i.e. a C/C++ compiler, PASCAL interpreter, assembler for my Commodore 64, because it wasn't like I could go on the internet and download them, and there were…

I wonder how the change in scarcity of resources will affect people's relationship with these subjects. Similar to yourself I grew up in an environment when information and software was hard to come by and thus highly prized. Books read beginning to end, games played to completion (often repeatedly), things like programming tutorials from print magazines completed then picked apart over several hours. Part of me worr…

I think that the easier, and more affordable, access to these resources is absolutely beneficial. It is hard to say how many more people get into the field (and stay) because of it versus not having it.

I also don't believe it would alter or diminish someone's internal self-motivation to learn. Actually, it would only serve to fuel the urge since there are always greater and greater challenges once you are making some progress and learning beyond the basics.

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