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No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

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Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#101

Post by adiabatty »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #70
adiabatty wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a weak undercurrent of condescension in the post (I've seen worse from Model View Culture); you may be picking up on that. I'm more interested in the un(der)examined assertion that, when it comes to accusations of sexual misconduct, the accused should have a presumption of guilt . Have there been any published arguments in favor of this?

She's saying that if word of harassing behavior bubbles to the surface, you should not ignore it but do the due diligence and see if there's a pattern of behavior there, not prosecuting the accused based on a single accusation. She also makes a distinction between accidental behavior and intentional/predatory/patterned behavior.

But she's not admitting the possibility of false accusation. That troubles me.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#102

Post by tptacek »

jondubois wrote: post #100
tptacek wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost definitely not; rather, the post was probably flagged by users. This happens all the time, and your question is a very common one.

'Flagged by users' - Interesting. Do some of these users happen to be friends with 'Jacob Appelbaum'? I understand, the whole system is rigged to praise rock stars and screw the plumbers.

No. Not only don't they, but that argument (that a thread or story is being propelled in some direction by shillage) is per se uncivil on HN. You're not allowed to make it at all. It turns out to be one of our better rules.

People flag stories for all sorts of reasons on HN. Some people don't want non-tech or political or current-events stories of any sort on the front page. Some people don't want to see threads descend into the inevitably shitshows that these threads descend into. Some people disagree with the story.

If you think something's been flagged unfairly, rather than litigating it on the threads, you should mail hn@ycombinator.com. We have one of the more reasonable moderation teams on the Internet here, but they can't be everywhere all at once.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#103

Post by dcposch »

tptacek wrote: post #98
dcposch wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when it casually calls for things like tossing due process and burden of proof out the window This is so important. Preface: I am not defending Jacob Appelbaum at all here---the evidence of wrongdoing in his case looks solid. Encouraging internet pitchfork mobs is wrong . Morally wrong. Due process can be frustratingly slow, but the principle of innocent until proven guilty is vital. Preemptively labelling people "…

This is ironic, since yours is a name I know principally from an attempt to whip up an Internet pitchfork mob, concerning a situation you had nothing to do with and know very little about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11724935 (and more on Twitter, of course). Please tell us more about how important this principle is to you. Also, much as I hate to spoil a fun new narrative wave for you to surf, but none of t…

Just wanted to give some context.

Here, I'll link directly to the thread you're talking about, so people can judge for themselves.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11726188

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#104

Post by tptacek »

dcposch wrote: post #103
tptacek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ironic, since yours is a name I know principally from an attempt to whip up an Internet pitchfork mob, concerning a situation you had nothing to do with and know very little about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11724935 (and more on Twitter, of course). Please tell us more about how important this principle is to you. Also, much as I hate to spoil a fun new narrative wave for you to surf, but none of t…

Just wanted to give some context. Here, I'll link directly to the thread you're talking about, so people can judge for themselves. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11726188

Uh huh.

https://twitter.com/dcposch/status/707069168852410368

I'm not saying you succeeded in creating a pitchfork mob, just that your attempts to do so were cartoonish, and so it's pretty funny to learn you've found religion about pitchforks now.

I would wrap this up by saying: things are complicated, they're often complicated in every possible direction, we usually don't have all the facts (you sure didn't), and we are rarely well served by platitudes. For example: the reason you believe the evidence against Appelbaum appears solid is that people spoke up.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#105

Post by vkou »

guitarbill wrote: post #82
vkou wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not justice when we put the victim on trial (As we do in most rape cases), but we do it anyway.

This is flat out wrong. In the US/EU, you can't be put on trial for being a rape victim. What offence would that be? Complete hyperbole.

Read any rape trial transcript, or even an account of someone who took their assault to trial. Read the questions asked the victim. They are invasive and degrading, and they are intended to paint them as scandalous, lying, drunk, promiscuous skank. Your personal and public credibility will be put under intense scrutiny.

The accused then takes the stand, and insists that yes, you clearly consented to being assaulted at 2 am behind a dumpster, when you were too drunk to speak.

And if, heaven forbid, the case falls apart, you'll likely be sued right back for slander, damaging your attacker's public image, loss of income, etc.

That's the defense's job in an adversarial legal system. That doesn't make in any better for victims.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#106

Post by strangecasts »

Saturnaut wrote: post #90
prawn wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victim blaming is pretty insensitive though, as is "letting yourself get screwed over". There was an infamous case in Australia where a cleric responded to gang-rape by members of his community by labelling young girls in skirts as being like raw meat attracting animals. The implication was "of course the animals will want to eat the meat". Yes, the reality is that if you never leave the house, live in a panic room,…

Yes, but young girls being forcibly gang raped is a far cry from what is laid out in this article. Yes, the action is on the abuser. I never once said the blame is on the victim. However, most of what the author has laid out is "He is a jerk, people have said he is a jerk, he takes advantage of people, etc". Not "He forcibly raped me and others." So - as an individual - taking very simple steps, like the ones I outli…

taking very simple steps, like the ones I outlined in my first comment, are only common sense, and can only work in said individual's favor.

Except rapes do get committed by "trusted" people, so we're left with "common sense" advice that is either massively paranoid or useless.

But something has to be said about taking responsibility for one's own safety and well being, and being intelligent about not getting into situations like these.

The article is "being intelligent about not getting into situations like these". You, on the other hand, seem to be trying for a just world fallacy.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#107

Post by dcposch »

tptacek wrote: post #104
dcposch wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to give some context. Here, I'll link directly to the thread you're talking about, so people can judge for themselves. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11726188

Uh huh. https://twitter.com/dcposch/status/707069168852410368 I'm not saying you succeeded in creating a pitchfork mob, just that your attempts to do so were cartoonish, and so it's pretty funny to learn you've found religion about pitchforks now. I would wrap this up by saying: things are complicated, they're often complicated in every possible direction, we usually don't have all the facts (you sure didn't), and we…

Yep. Here's the full conversation again, it starts with this tweet: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/705825790529662976

That was rude, unkind and you shouldn't have posted it.

Happy to have people read both the Twitter thread and the one on HN, I think I said things that were worth, if you'll pardon the phrase, speaking up about.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#108

Post by vkou »

adiabatty wrote: post #101
SkyMarshal wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's saying that if word of harassing behavior bubbles to the surface, you should not ignore it but do the due diligence and see if there's a pattern of behavior there, not prosecuting the accused based on a single accusation. She also makes a distinction between accidental behavior and intentional/predatory/patterned behavior.

But she's not admitting the possibility of false accusation. That troubles me.

A very small (~1%) number of people are responsible for the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment. Most harassers harass many, many victims, before they are called out on it.

This means that if you are actually doing harassment, your odds of getting called out on any particular interaction are low.

This also means that if you aren't actually doing any harassment, your odds of being falsely accused are even lower. While you're not more likely to be hit by a bus on the way to work, it's not that far off.

Getting falsely accused by more then one person (Which is what the article points out as the big red warning sign) would be like winning the lottery. It's best not to structure your policies about landing 6 for 6 on the 6/49.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#109

Post by klagermkii »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

> That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly repellent to me and I'm struggling to put my finger on the reason why.

I'm sure the authors of the article would recommend you read the linked piece on http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument

For me what sits a little uneasily is that a huge amount of this directly conflicts with the startup culture and stories of early tech, especially ones which may actually have appealed to certain "nerdy" personalities. Be it your Apple or Microsoft with people staying extremely late living on pizza, throwing themselves entirely into the project, people being almost 100% responsible for their particular portion be it QuickDraw or the SID chip or CP/M or such things, building a sense of camaraderie through the shared struggle to deliver. I agree that long-term it's harmful, and I certainly wouldn't want to work in a company that tried to make it the indefinte norm, but I dislike the insinuation that it is so bad that there is never a time or a place for it (due to leading to harassment etc).

If some people want to draw life satisfaction primarily from their work and getting acclaim for it, is there no place for that in the world?

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#110

Post by tptacek »

dcposch wrote: post #107
tptacek wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh huh. https://twitter.com/dcposch/status/707069168852410368 I'm not saying you succeeded in creating a pitchfork mob, just that your attempts to do so were cartoonish, and so it's pretty funny to learn you've found religion about pitchforks now. I would wrap this up by saying: things are complicated, they're often complicated in every possible direction, we usually don't have all the facts (you sure didn't), and we…

Yep. Here's the full conversation again, it starts with this tweet: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/705825790529662976 That was rude, unkind and you shouldn't have posted it. Happy to have people read both the Twitter thread and the one on HN, I think I said things that were worth, if you'll pardon the phrase, speaking up about.

I feel bad about it.

Specifically: I feel bad that I didn't come up with it. It was funny!

Instead, I ended up subjecting someone else to the shitstorm you and Nadim briefly generated. Just weeks ago, you were on HN --- unbidden! --- to inform everyone that I'd been "joking about Nadim's penis". You two deserve each other.

I'm going to bow out of this part of the thread before we start litigating a different monster in the security/privacy community.

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