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No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

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Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#61

Post by tptacek »

chroma wrote: post #37

With the exception of the "assume guilt" recommendation (which seems ripe for abuse), I think these guidelines are mostly fine. But calling abusive people "rock stars" seems unnecessarily controversial. Better to use the accurate and unambiguous "abuser". That describes Jacob Applebaum far more clearly than "rock star". Also, I think a term like "rock star" (in the benevolent sense) is a useful one. There are people…

Rock star abusers are a subset of abusers, so your proposed change doesn't work.

Try to give the piece the most charitable possible interpretation. Leigh Honeywell knows more about Daniel J. Bernstein and Theo de Raadt than most people on HN. There's an interpretation of this post that suggests she's claiming that DJB and Theo are abusers, but common sense --- we don't even need charity! --- tells us that's probably not what she's saying.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#62

Post by MBCook »

exstudent2 wrote: post #19
matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

I think this post is way off base because it equates being a difficult employee with being a sexual predator and full blown criminal. It then outlines how to "fix" the problem with some decent solutions combined with very specific politically motivated initiatives (many links to feminist sites...). It also has a tone of absolute authority that is mirrored in the flagging and downvoting of comments happening in this v…

Ignoring sexual harassment/etc. which you seem to agree is wrong.... why should I (or the rest of the tech community) put up with assholes?

I'm not giving them a free pass either. Both behaviors are wrong (one MUCH worse), but neither need to be tolerated.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#64

Post by vkou »

spriggan3 wrote: post #60
adiabatty wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a weak undercurrent of condescension in the post (I've seen worse from Model View Culture); you may be picking up on that. I'm more interested in the un(der)examined assertion that, when it comes to accusations of sexual misconduct, the accused should have a presumption of guilt . Have there been any published arguments in favor of this?

> the accused should have a presumption of guilt That may be how social media work, that's absolutely not how justice should work. Anybody can be accused of sexual misconduct on social media. It's not justice when one can't defend himself.

It's not justice when we put the victim on trial (As we do in most rape cases), but we do it anyway.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#65

Post by SkyMarshal »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

>That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly repellent to me and I'm struggling to put my finger on the reason why.

It may be b/c she's conflating "rockstar" with "asshole", begging the question are all tech rockstars assholes, and are all tech assholes rockstars? Her personal experience seems characterized by a preponderance of evidence in support of that, but others may not have the same experience.

She also seems to define rockstars as attention whores who don't actually get any real work done (in the section on how you recognize one), which is not the definition the HN crowd is used to (quite the opposite), and begs the question why are they rockstars? Coasting on a single past achievement maybe?

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#66

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

minimaxir wrote: post #10
Aelinsaar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly did nothing good for the video-game industry. cough Daikatana cough I think you're right, and the "rock star" pattern looks similar wherever it crops up, with similar fallout. It's only the tolerance for it which varies.

John Romero was a rockstar, but his attitude only affected Ion Storm/Daikatana, not other people. And that was more than a decade ago.

Ion Storm had more than one employee.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#67

Post by lukeasrodgers »

super_id wrote: post #52

Stopped reading at the trigger warning. When did the whole internet become a joke from PCU?

Personally I find trigger warnings annoying sometimes as well, though I believe it is mostly for irrational reasons and so I don't let it stop me from reading anything preceded by a trigger warning. Even if you believe you have good reasons for being offended/annoyed by trigger warnings, it's unfortunate that this would cause you to dismiss the text/opinion out of hand.

Perhaps we need trigger warning trigger warnings for people who are triggered by trigger warnings?

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#68

Post by droithomme »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

It's mentioned in the first linked article from that one that she is one of the "three respected members of the computer security and privacy tech communities" she mentions who was assaulted.

I hope that she will take the evidence to the police and file charges as soon as possible. Violent crimes such as are being reported can not be allowed to slide. It's critical that trained authorities take over the investigation at this point and determine the facts, gather evidence, interview witnesses, and proceed as needed with prosecution. Prosecuting a case through amateur blogs is not an effective or appropriate means of obtaining justice.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#69

Post by dragonwriter »

jimrandomh wrote: post #36

To keep out bad actors, it's very important to have an accurate model of what those bad actors are like and how to recognize them. The correct word for this is not "rock star", it's "psychopath". Equating the term "rock star" with bad actors is not going to accurately guide people's attention where it needs to go; instead, it'll lead to attacks on honest people who happen to have accumulated prestige. Those are the v…

"Rock star" isn't a description of what a bad actor looks like, but it is a description of treatment of people who have high performance on one axis which empowers those that happen to be bad actors in manners unrelated to that axis and disempowers their victims.

Keeping out bad actors is desirable, but never going to be 100%. Avoiding creating the power dynamic which enables abusers to flourish is also important.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#70

Post by SkyMarshal »

adiabatty wrote: post #30
matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

There's a weak undercurrent of condescension in the post (I've seen worse from Model View Culture); you may be picking up on that. I'm more interested in the un(der)examined assertion that, when it comes to accusations of sexual misconduct, the accused should have a presumption of guilt . Have there been any published arguments in favor of this?

She's saying that if word of harassing behavior bubbles to the surface, you should not ignore it but do the due diligence and see if there's a pattern of behavior there, not prosecuting the accused based on a single accusation. She also makes a distinction between accidental behavior and intentional/predatory/patterned behavior.
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