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No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

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Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#31

Post by ktRolster »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly repellent to me and I'm struggling to put my finger on the reason why.

To me the dissonance came from an unusual definition of the word "rockstar." In the programming context, I've usually heard it as "someone who is really good at programming," but here they are trying to define it as "someone who pretends to be good at programming and harasses everyone around them."

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#32

Post by barozi »

I am probably the a rare person who has been sexually assaulted by a woman. And I have had 2 women falsely accuse me of rape over a 10-year period. In short, people are irrational and do weird things out of shame, anger or spite.

I put myself in the situation with the girl who assaulted me twice. We had kissed a few times and I stayed over at her place, more out of necessity than a romantic intention.

She got completely naked, groped me, jumped on top of me, and I basically wrestled he away for 15 minutes. She insulted me, said I should just be a man, called me gay and on and on.

The next month she did the same thing; naked, grabbing me, and I pushed her away for 20 minutes or so. Yes I had "led her on", and kissed her but she was a turnoff to me for a variety of reasons, and I didn't want to have sex with her.

Other times, I had a girl mess around with me, get too excited, we had sex, she freaks out, tells her friend I raped her, and then came over the next night.

I only mention this because the above blog seems quite dubious. Obviously when the girl assaulted me, it is a different situation when a guy does it to a girl because of obvious reasons. I wasn't scared for my life or of being forcefully penetrated. The cops didn't get involved in any of the situations.

I have no idea if this guy Jacob is guilty or not. He seems like an insensitive person though. When I read things like in the first link and first accusation of the blog above, that Jacob told people about a girl's sex act, I become skeptical. If they want to include that, do it last, after the actual accusations of rape or sexual assault.

And the original 3 people who accused Jacob misunderstood the situation and were wrong.

Sex is a tricky thing about what is right and what is wrong. Jacob didn't listen to a girl's safe word? He talked openly about sex inappropriately? He raped a girl in front of a group? Man, if I was in that group of people both Jacob and I would be in jail; me for assault.

Today, people have expanded the definition of rape to being drunk and having regrets or being lied to.

For the sake of everyone, if you are accusing Jacob Appelbum of rape or sexual assault, file a police report, or publicly write about it.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#33

Post by NetTechM »

exstudent2 wrote: post #19
matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

I think this post is way off base because it equates being a difficult employee with being a sexual predator and full blown criminal. It then outlines how to "fix" the problem with some decent solutions combined with very specific politically motivated initiatives (many links to feminist sites...). It also has a tone of absolute authority that is mirrored in the flagging and downvoting of comments happening in this v…

Well said, it would seem that anything outside the realm of downright compliance/agreement is met with shutting down the conversation.

Perhaps the piece is too weak to stand on its own merit.

Everyone knows sexual assault is bad, jerks are jerks, not all jerks are sexual predators and Twitter is still the worst source possible, next to Tumblr.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#34

Post by exstudent2 »

ksenzee wrote: post #13
tenementfunster wrote: post #9

'Start with the assumption that harassment reports are true and investigate them thoroughly' Sorry, what? We have this whole ideal of "innocent until proven guilty" in America (and many other places) so you can kindly take this nonsense elsewhere.

Remember, this is aimed at employers and open-source projects, not the justice system. Besides, what alternative are you suggesting? Start with the assumption that harassment reports are false, and throw them in the trash?

It's not up to open source maintainers to act as a poor mirror of the judicial system. If someone is breaking the law, the authorities should handle it. If the accused is found guilty, then they can be kicked out of the project/fired...

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#35

Post by exstudent2 »

jondubois wrote: post #29

I'm really glad that someone is raising this issue. This 'rock star worship' culture is rampant in Open Source communities. What's worse is that many of these 'rock stars' don't do anything except blog and give talks at conferences - Their main goal is self-promotion. They don't give a shit about the actual project or the community. You rarely hear about open source developers who focus on one project and produce ama…

That's a separate issue from saying that rockstar syndrome leads to sexual abuse though. It's not really fair to use a boogieman like that to make the case against rockstar worship. If it's a bad idea, it can be argued against without the rhetorical leap made here.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#36

Post by jimrandomh »

To keep out bad actors, it's very important to have an accurate model of what those bad actors are like and how to recognize them. The correct word for this is not "rock star", it's "psychopath". Equating the term "rock star" with bad actors is not going to accurately guide people's attention where it needs to go; instead, it'll lead to attacks on honest people who happen to have accumulated prestige. Those are the very people who have the ability to spot and push out the psychopaths. But if they're forced into conflict with feminists, they won't be doing that.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#37

Post by chroma »

With the exception of the "assume guilt" recommendation (which seems ripe for abuse), I think these guidelines are mostly fine. But calling abusive people "rock stars" seems unnecessarily controversial. Better to use the accurate and unambiguous "abuser". That describes Jacob Applebaum far more clearly than "rock star".

Also, I think a term like "rock star" (in the benevolent sense) is a useful one. There are people who are really talented (and know it), who love the limelight, who sometimes say controversial things, and who have contributed more to our industry than any of us could hope to. I'm talking about people like Daniel J. Bernstein, David Heinemeier Hansson, Theo de Raadt, and (of course) Linus Torvalds. If we're going to give "rock star" purely negative connotations, I'm not sure what what to call these people. "Badass" would work, except some social circles frown upon profanity.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#38

Post by protomyth »

chris_7 wrote: post #28
protomyth wrote: post #21

It seems like they are redefining rock star in the "A rock star likes to be the center of attention." paragraph. I am getting a little sick of the trend[1] of redefining a word to mean something else. Given this, a genuine complement of calling someone a "rock star" should probably be met with a hostility. The line "A rock star appears in dozens of magazine profiles – and never, ever tells the journalist to talk to t…

It's somewhat true that lead singers and guitarists are lionized over drummers and bassists, but they're still doing relatively equal work (and in many cases the singer is also the writer). There's also the sound/lights/crew/merch people, but they wouldn't have a reason to be there without the rock stars.

I think in your first example, I can name a lot more bands that have been able to replace drummers and bassists than lead singers and guitarists, but all of them are considered rock stars. With a bit of unequal fame (well except for the obvious such as Santana).

The crew is important, but so is the electric company that provides the power. They are, as you say, only there because of the rock stars.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#39

Post by ksenzee »

exstudent2 wrote: post #34
ksenzee wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember, this is aimed at employers and open-source projects, not the justice system. Besides, what alternative are you suggesting? Start with the assumption that harassment reports are false, and throw them in the trash?

It's not up to open source maintainers to act as a poor mirror of the judicial system. If someone is breaking the law, the authorities should handle it. If the accused is found guilty, then they can be kicked out of the project/fired...

I can't agree with you. Open-source communities have both the right and the responsibility to protect themselves from toxic people. If I showed up in, say, the Firefox issue tracker and started trolling people and insulting their contributors, they'd ban me without thinking twice. I wouldn't have broken any laws, but they'd still be well within their rights to get rid of me.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#40

Post by vkou »

adiabatty wrote: post #30
matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

There's a weak undercurrent of condescension in the post (I've seen worse from Model View Culture); you may be picking up on that. I'm more interested in the un(der)examined assertion that, when it comes to accusations of sexual misconduct, the accused should have a presumption of guilt . Have there been any published arguments in favor of this?

It's not a presumption of guilt, but for social censure, the bar should be far, far, far lower then it is in a court of law.

If anyone's been following, for instance, the Jian Ghomeshi trial, any reasonable person should conclude that he is quite probably a rapist, and is most definitely a predator. (As he himself admitted in the Kathryn Borel trial). However, the jury failed to conclude that he is a rapist beyond reasonable doubt.

Sending someone to jail when their odds of being guilty are say 50%, or even 75% is unconscionable (Although if you don't have a good lawyer, that most can most certainly happen). On the other hand, say, not banning that same person from your conference is grossly negligent.

Additionally, in many environments, the consequences for reporting that you were a victim of sexual harassment are far more serious then for being an actual perpetrator of sexual harassment. By default, we bias ourselves to favour attackers.

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