“PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files” • Hacker News Board

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#301

Post by Canutesun » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 7:36 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #287

cm2187 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the world of financial regulations! You may have not realised but banks and any financial institutions have been deputised by the regulators to be the financial police. They need to ensure that none of their client use financial services to commit crimes or launder the proceeds of a crime, under the penalty of heavy (up to multi billions) fines. Particularly in the US. I am pretty sure this is what is forc…

Crimes. Yes. But payday loan companies and credit cards that charge 29% interest plus hundreds of dollars in feeds to "help people with poor credit" are fine. Supporting US government entities in defense that kill tons of innocent people every day; that's fine too. Self regulating? Man that works so well, especially in 2008. We're going to let you keep doing that too. Weed stores in states where it's legal? Hi it's t…

Regulation has done a great job in several industries of concentrating the industries into a few major players, because it is incredibly difficult to comply for new/small companies. Banking and finance is one, telecom is another.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#302

Post by thesimon » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 7:40 PM UTC

eyko wrote: post #141

thirdsun wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a german that's not my experience at all. Credit cards aren't that common here and SEPA transfers are slow as hell and always a minor hassle, that I tend to avoid as long as I can. Without Paypal a lot of european customers wouldn't be able to buy from international vendors.

What about debit cards? I mean, you don't carry cash around all the time do you?

Germany has its own shitty debit card system called "girocard". And whereas other smart countries (e.g. UK) switched to international schemes, this is still the card issued to most customers. There are a few downsides of this

* No Card-Not-Present-Transactions, because the cobranding is only for abroad

* Visa/MasterCard cobranding was not allowed until a few days ago (when the EU introduced new laws)

* Used to have high minimum fees (7 cents) for a long time, so expensive for smaller transactions

* Cashback only from 20€

* No damn contactless

=> Germanys banking sector is still mostly stuck back in 2000. Debit cards are around, but mostly for cash withdraws. Smaller transactions are mostly paid in cash, because they used to be expensive and no contactless.

The big banks have no interest in changing that, because as long as card payments are unpopular, they can charge >5€ for cash withdraws if you make "out-of-network" ATM withdraws.

tl;dr: Germany has its own shitty debit card system stuck in 2000 which sucks.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#303

Post by thesimon » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 7:43 PM UTC

ccozan wrote: post #91

lars_francke wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany you now also have paydirekt.de which is a direct competitor to PayPal initiated by most major banks in Germany.

I am in Germany, didn't know about the paydirect.de. Has anyone tested them?

It's pretty useless if you don't buy sugar, Haribo or BBQ stuff on a daily basis.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#304

Post by thesimon » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 7:47 PM UTC

ar0 wrote: post #190

Hondor wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give some examples? I know in America there are lots of startups doing it, but what about the rest of the world? I looked into Skrill a few years ago which seems to be just as international as Paypal, but also with just as horrible terms and conditions.

In Germany (where seafile is located), there is for example Paymill [1] for accepting credit cards and SEPA direct debit. It is pretty expensive (2.95% + 28 cents per transaction) but it seems to have a good API and if it is more reliable than PayPal (which isn't exactly cheap either) it might be worth it. [1] https://www.paymill.com/

Quote overpriced and uncertain future (they recently filed for Chapter 11)

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#305

Post by scrollaway » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 8:09 PM UTC

Strom wrote: post #283

scrollaway wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to recommend the bank Number26. They're german and operate across most of europe. https://number26.eu/ Seriously , if you're european, try these guys out - they're worth it.

You saying that they operate across most of europe and if you're european, try these guys out . Then their own site having lines like Your bank account just as mobile as you are. and Banking everywhere made me think for a moment that they may actually offer their services across Europe. Not the case. Digging deeper [1] we can find this: The only conditions are that you're at least 18 years old and have a residential…

I'm in Greece right now, didn't have any trouble setting up a bank account with them.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#306

Post by contingencies » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

sisk wrote: post #285

contingencies wrote: post #221

Had to use Paypal today to make a payment to a company who can't otherwise find a reasonable way to take credit cards online. I feel their pain, having been in that position. Paypal randomly saw that it was reasonable to demand I answer a phone in another country (though I haven't been based there for perhaps 15 years) if I wanted to log in to my account. I had to work around this by having them send a payment reques…

Am I misinterpreting something? It sounds like you're upset with PayPal because you tried to make a payment from a country other than the one on record (which trips every fraud detection out there) and that they tried to contact you for verification with the number they had on file which you haven't updated in 15 years. That sounds like reasonable behavior from their end.

... except that I haven't changed my behavior and the 'reasonable' action they took was permanently locking me out of my account. Note that they presented this whole experience to me in a foreign language because obviously my GeoIP is the same as my location because privacy, China and VPNs don't exist. And of course, I had no choice but to leave that number on record because it matches my credit card address. Because of course, there is no such thing as a credit card with an address outside of the issuing country, or someone that lives at many addresses or an address where there is no reliable mail. It's basically a number of bad assumptions layered with bad customer service and algorithms. Every year my credit card company randomly stops my card because they think it's weird a transaction occurred in some country or other. I say "See how I just bought a plane ticket right before that? How is that strange?". Right on my card it says "World Mastercard". I have or have had accounts with this same bank in 5 countries. They know this. But we can't just blame the bank, it's the credit card system. Apparently in every corner of the world, idiots run these algorithms. Finally, note that for this wonderful experience I pay 5% of USD$1000 = USD$50. The US intelligence sponsored monopoly of card companies on payment has to end.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#307

Post by sedachv » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 8:47 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #287

cm2187 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the world of financial regulations! You may have not realised but banks and any financial institutions have been deputised by the regulators to be the financial police. They need to ensure that none of their client use financial services to commit crimes or launder the proceeds of a crime, under the penalty of heavy (up to multi billions) fines. Particularly in the US. I am pretty sure this is what is forc…

Crimes. Yes. But payday loan companies and credit cards that charge 29% interest plus hundreds of dollars in feeds to "help people with poor credit" are fine. Supporting US government entities in defense that kill tons of innocent people every day; that's fine too. Self regulating? Man that works so well, especially in 2008. We're going to let you keep doing that too. Weed stores in states where it's legal? Hi it's t…

> But payday loan companies and credit cards that charge 29% interest plus hundreds of dollars in feeds to "help people with poor credit" are fine.

Nope, you do not even need to commit crimes to be targeted by the DOJ:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point

https://news.vice.com/article/is-the-doj-forcing-banks-to-te...

Payday loan companies in particular were hit hard by Operation Choke Point in 2013 (I worked at a "lending startup" that was targeted and had to pivot; a lot of payday/consumer lending companies ended up shutting down).

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#308

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #293

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the UN bank can threaten to kick out your central/federal bank too This does not exist. Central banks interface with each other. The closest thing to what you're describing is the European Central Bank. > pledge loyalty to UN This is gibberish. One can be recognised by the United Nations (UN). One can also, by accepting its Charter and paying one's fees, become a UN Member. But there is no pledging of fielty involv…

You never heard of World Bank, BIS, FSB, whatnot?

> You never heard of World Bank, BIS, FSB

None of these is referred to as "a UN Bank". Only the World Bank is a part of the United Nations system. It makes loans to developing countries. The only way being "kicked out" of the World Bank makes sense would be if it refused to lend to you (which it does often and usually with minimum consequence). Note that the World Bank System lends to many non-UN member entities, e.g. private businesses and non-profits. China got pissed off at the World Bank and IMF last year and effectively kicked itself out by starting a competitor in its "New Development Bank".

The Bank for International Settlements is a discussion forum whose recommendations are not binding. The United States, for instance, added its own touch to Basel III, Switzerland layered on a "Swiss finish" and China, India and many others simply ignored it. Being "kicked out" of the BIS would simply mean you don't get to go to its meetings. Many countries do fine without being BIS members. The Financial Stability Board is an even smaller group with even less tangible activity than the BIS. (It published a book report on rules it thought sovereign wealth funds should follow. Compliance is voluntary and one need not be a member to read or implement, or as more countries have done, ignore, the report's suggestions.)

The closest international financial systems one can be "kicked out" of with consequence are the electronic-dollar transmission system operated by the New York Federal Reserve [1] (you can still use printed dollars if America "kicks you out") and the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (SWIFT) [2]. SWIFT is not a club for only central banks–many private banks are SWIFT members, too, and many get "kicked out" for doing varieties of stupid things. They can still move their money around by asking other banks to do it for them.

The international financial Illuminati you think exists does not.

[1] https://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/fedpoint/fed20

[2] https://www.swift.com

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#309

Post by joopxiv » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 9:53 PM UTC

Hondor wrote: post #36

joopxiv wrote: post #7

I have quite some personal experience with PayPal, and their policies seem quite random. If one person gets it into his or her head that something is not allowed, no voice of reason will change the decision. I wouldn't shed too much tears over it though, there are many better and cheaper alternative forms of payment.

Can you give some examples? I know in America there are lots of startups doing it, but what about the rest of the world? I looked into Skrill a few years ago which seems to be just as international as Paypal, but also with just as horrible terms and conditions.

PayPal is basically a pass-through wallet, meaning most people don't actually hold funds in their wallet but get they transactions funded one-on-one by a different source. For PayPal this is usually a credit card or direct debit from a bank account.

In most circumstances it's a lot cheaper to accept the credit card or do the direct debits directly (via a payment service provider). If you're operating internationally, find a PSP that offers many local payment options. For example, in many European countries, very few people have a credit card. If you offer your customers local payment options like Giropay and Sofort you won't need to bother with PayPal in my opinion.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#310

Post by mahyarm » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #146

chinathrow wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essentially, it goes way further than what these financial institutions can do. It goes directly to what the U.S. fed can do - the clearing house for the USD. It can cut off any bank for misconduct/doing business with e.g. Cuba etc.

Also, the UN bank can threaten to kick out your central/federal bank too. Also an interesting example of bank politics is that Khadaffi made several laws in Libya against UN bank rules, for example providing loans with infinite term and zero interest for newlyweds. During the civil war, one of the first things the rebels did was create a central bank in Misrata, pledge loyalty to UN and then redquest to be recognized…

> infinite term and zero interest for newlyweds

Why not just call it a tax free gift from the government then? And print the money from the central bank. It's about equivalent.