Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#71

Post by Longhanks » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:40 PM UTC

rsfinn wrote: post #56

sangnoir wrote: post #47

I find this program ironic since Apple locks down iDevices pretty hard - their App Store rules prohibit coding[1] on iPhones & iPads. If anyone were to attempt to make an interpreter/port Scratch or Python to iOS, the app would not be approved. 1. §3.3.2 An Application may not download or install executable code. Interpreted code may only be used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in…

Perhaps you haven't heard about Pythonista, which is a full Python programming environment available on the App Store. Now there's also Playgrounds, which is a Swift programming environment that comes with the iOS 10 beta and runs on the iPad (you can even invoke iOS frameworks, apparently) — yes, this is from Apple itself, and yes, they're bending their own rules. But your original statement is not strictly true.

In what way are they bending their own rules? The application comes with it's own Swift compiler and exposes only the public APIs.

Nothing Pythonista couldn't do already.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#72

Post by sirn » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:42 PM UTC

rsfinn wrote: post #56

sangnoir wrote: post #47

I find this program ironic since Apple locks down iDevices pretty hard - their App Store rules prohibit coding[1] on iPhones & iPads. If anyone were to attempt to make an interpreter/port Scratch or Python to iOS, the app would not be approved. 1. §3.3.2 An Application may not download or install executable code. Interpreted code may only be used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in…

Perhaps you haven't heard about Pythonista, which is a full Python programming environment available on the App Store. Now there's also Playgrounds, which is a Swift programming environment that comes with the iOS 10 beta and runs on the iPad (you can even invoke iOS frameworks, apparently) — yes, this is from Apple itself, and yes, they're bending their own rules. But your original statement is not strictly true.

Pythonista can invoke iOS frameworks too[1].

1: https://files.grid.in.th/7KXJ4O.jpg (from Pythonista's examples)

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#73

Post by jshevek » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:43 PM UTC

Another distressing characteristic of apple's tactics is that it increases social inequality. (Let's set aside those irrational SJWs that have arisen lately - there can be a rational approach to social justice).

There are some pretty clear demographic divides in apple users vs everyone else. Apple could have donated to non-profits that especially serve under-privileged people, especially financially disadvantaged children.

Instead, they are 'educating the youth' in a way that is automatically biased towards the most privileged people. Outreach programs won't change the fact that they are locating it in their stores.

(Edited the adjectives for SJWs)

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#74

Post by gshulegaard » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:46 PM UTC

jshevek wrote: post #70

gshulegaard wrote: post #63

I am pretty surprised by the general lack luster comments bordering on negativity here. Personally, I think it is great to see a major retailer take even a misguided stab at improving child tech education which has quickly fallen behind demand (in America). Do I think the approach is more than a little bit wrong? Sure, GUI programming a non-useful task wouldn't be my choice. Would I prefer a more robust longer-term p…

For me, it has the feeling of being more of a PR stunt than a sincere effort to help education. Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. I would rather Apple donate an equal amount of money to any of those entities out there which help to bring technology to the youth.

While your skepticism is easily justified and I share it, I would just point out that:

> Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age.

If this leads to other vendors like Microsoft, Google, etc. launching their own coding camps geared towards youth I think it's a net win and results in competition in an area which is currently under served.

I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#75

Post by Matt3o12_ » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:47 PM UTC

jshevek wrote: post #59

sxg wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a GUI, mainstream computing probably wouldn't even exist let alone mainstream programming.

> Without a GUI, mainstream computing probably wouldn't even exist let alone mainstream programming. As a child growing up, learning to function in society by speaking, reading, writing, and generally understanding English was a much harder task for me than learning to program in BASIC. BASIC is simple, predictable, logical and downright easy compared to English. We take learning to read and write for granted, but it…

> Its easy to imagine a version of our world in which children learn to interact with computers without GUIs, if CLIs were the norm. Children would learn them faster than adults.

Do you want those children to hate CLIs because they are boring and they have to learn it just like all other boring stuff such learning how to read and write? If we offer children a way to enjoy what they are doing (i.e. make it fun to use/learn it), they will look forward to learning how to program. And making a task harder while it could be easier is not the answer (and children are not stupid, they would realize that a GUI would also be possible these days).

Furthermore, CLIs are hard to use in many environments. Would you want your waitress type "start paying; add product NAME [QUNANTIY]" instead of just touching the symbol a few times? There are many advantages with CLIs, especially when doing "traditional computing tasks" but in the real world, which is becoming much more digital, CLIs are not useable and a touchscreen with buttons is quicker. So why should the general public know how to use them – there are outside of our "edge cases" not really useful.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#76

Post by chillacy » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:50 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #14

Ironically, I sometimes fear Apple would be the harbinger of programming's death, what with how much can be done via consumer-friendly app and touch-screens. It didn't help hearing about OSX becoming macOS, which would be well in line with a dystopian future in which the only people who need to know about plaintext and file systems are the full-time Apple programmers. But this sounds like a great initiative...and als…

> dystopian future in which the only people who need to know about plaintext and file systems are the full-time Apple programmers

We're heading into a dystopian future where the only people who need to know about manual transmission and fuel injectors are auto mechanics.

There are plenty of non technical people who benefit from increased abstraction. I'm personally happy as long as it doesn't impact productivity for power users.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#77

Post by joshaidan » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:51 PM UTC

plg wrote: post #32

I took my kid to one of these last year. It was fairly useless. They drag around little action-icons into a list to make an animated character move around and do stuff. My 11-year-old was bored stiff. Edit: PS the Apple Store employee who ran this thing (he was a very nice guy) admitted he had zero coding experience himself

When I was a kid I learned programming by going to the library and borrowing books on programming. This was, of course, before the days of the Internet where you can use google to find those resources. My biggest challenge was trying to find the tools I needed, i.e. a C/C++ compiler, PASCAL interpreter, assembler for my Commodore 64, because it wasn't like I could go on the internet and download them, and there were fewer free open source tools that I could get my hands on. So I would have to had the money to buy them, as well as find a store were I could purchase them because it wasn't like I could go online and order them.

Anyway, the point I want to make is that I was a pretty self motivated learner, I didn't need someone telling me what to do, but it would have been nice to have the resources I needed, and an "expert" I could go to who could help me when I had questions or didn't understand something.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#78

Post by Michie » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

simonbw wrote: post #35

Michie wrote: post #24

I like Apple's initiative but why use a third party application instead of their Swift Playground? It seems more appropriate and based on what's shown on WWDC, it's not that hard to learn. This is a possible sign that Tynker can be bought by Apple soon to be integrated with Swift Playground.

The answer given by the article: However, that app [Swift Playground] is aimed at slightly older children – those aged 12 and up. But I have no idea if that's the real reason.

If you have tried the Swift Playground, you'd realize even 6-8 years old can actually use it.

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#79

Post by jshevek » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

gshulegaard wrote: post #74

jshevek wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, it has the feeling of being more of a PR stunt than a sincere effort to help education. Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. I would rather Apple donate an equal amount of money to any of those entities out there which help to bring technology to the youth.

While your skepticism is easily justified and I share it, I would just point out that: > Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. If this leads to other vendors like Microsoft, Google, etc. launching their own coding camps geared towards youth I think it's a net win and results in competition in an area which is currently under served. I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corpo…

> I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for.

Google gave 190,000 - and possibly much more that I'm unaware of. [1]

> launching their own coding camps

I think what apple is doing right now is 'mostly harmless'. The strategy is flawed and antisocial, but the reach and impact is minimal. However, if all the major players started competing in this area, I think it could quickly became a significant net loss for our society. Established for profit tech corporations with eco-system oriented agendas are not well suited for the role of designing or choosing educational programs for our youth, their self interest is too narrow and all consuming.

[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-...

Re: Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

#80

Post by Michie » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

glhaynes wrote: post #30

Michie wrote: post #24

I like Apple's initiative but why use a third party application instead of their Swift Playground? It seems more appropriate and based on what's shown on WWDC, it's not that hard to learn. This is a possible sign that Tynker can be bought by Apple soon to be integrated with Swift Playground.

Swift Playgrounds only runs on the iOS 10 beta and is itself still in a prerelease form.

It's possible that it still runs on iOS 10 beta, but based on their sample templates and what they have used in WWDC16, it's already a fully functional app. Better implementation than Tynker. And it's also a good preview for future coders to use.