Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

“PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

seafile.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 348 posts

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#271

Post by Canada »

Arnt wrote: post #180
Canada wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree that Seafile should be under any obligation to do that. If customers want to share files, let them. Storage services shouldn't ever look at what the files contain or their metadata. edit: looks like paypal openly states it won't process for file sharing services who don't monitor content. I guess most services that don't have a high dispute rate...

Last year I saw a customer (not at Seafile) who accessed our (paid) service from 20 different countries on the same day. Do you think that customer travelled to all those countries on that day? Do you think we were wrong to look for such globetrotting customers? Do you think we were wrong, or Seafile would be wrong, to look for customers who share their account with their hundred best friends?

It depends. If the purpose is to prevent access to customer data not authorized by the customer then it's ok. If you do it to further the interests of anyone other than your customer it's unethical.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#272

Post by CamperBob2 »

MichaelBurge wrote: post #11

File sharing services are listed as requiring pre-approval, so Seafile should've sent them an email before accepting it as payment: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full They're well within their rights to decline your business. If a bank told the government, "We have no absolutely no idea what our customers are doing with their money or who they're sending it to. Maybe they're sending it to ter…

One question is, once the US dollar becomes a vehicle for prior restraint -- meaning no one can own, spend or transfer it without meeting a long list of largely-arbitrary conditions imposed by the US government -- is it still "money" at all? Or is it just another extrajudicial law enforcement tool, backed up by the full faith and credit of a moral and intellectual toddler with 20,000 nukes?

It would sure be nice if the next Satoshi, whoever he/she/it is, manages to create something (a) that scales properly, and (b) that ordinary people can actually use.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#273

Post by palunon »

corobo wrote: post #219
RubyPinch wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unless the "corruption" is reversible by the torrent client, which it would be

If the corruption is reversible then the people doing the checking can also reverse it. They'll have both the corrupt version and the reverse-fixed version and just have to check an extra hash per thing they're scanning for

If the corruption is based on a value, different for each client (eg, a random number or the serial number of your motherboard), how do you reverse it ?

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#274

Post by indlebe »

josteink wrote: post #3

> PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as all our customers’ files for illegal content. They have also asked us to provide them with detailed statistics about the files types of our customers sync and share on https://app.seafile.de That's a pretty big WTF right there. I know PayPal has a on overall pretty scummy reputation, but I still I cannot imagine PayPal doing this because they themselves th…

Paypal has been acting like this of their own accord for some time now. More than a decade ago a friend of mine sold cold filter bags for herbal extracts online using Paypal. The product was completely legal and didn't allude in any way that it was designed for illegal use (read marijuana hash making).

Paypal decided, about 9 months in, to close their account in a similar fashion to the service here and deny them access to thousands in funds, touting an irrelevant bong sales ban in a state somewhere in the US (he was in Canada). It took years for him to get the seized funds back from Paypal.

I try to boycott them unless absolutely needed.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#275

Post by tomp »

Arnt wrote: post #180
Canada wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree that Seafile should be under any obligation to do that. If customers want to share files, let them. Storage services shouldn't ever look at what the files contain or their metadata. edit: looks like paypal openly states it won't process for file sharing services who don't monitor content. I guess most services that don't have a high dispute rate...

Last year I saw a customer (not at Seafile) who accessed our (paid) service from 20 different countries on the same day. Do you think that customer travelled to all those countries on that day? Do you think we were wrong to look for such globetrotting customers? Do you think we were wrong, or Seafile would be wrong, to look for customers who share their account with their hundred best friends?

Yes, you were wrong. Maybe the user was just lending the files to his/her best friends? Or some other kind of fair use... You can't just generalize that all file-sharing is illegal.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#276

Post by makecheck »

MichaelBurge wrote: post #11

File sharing services are listed as requiring pre-approval, so Seafile should've sent them an email before accepting it as payment: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full They're well within their rights to decline your business. If a bank told the government, "We have no absolutely no idea what our customers are doing with their money or who they're sending it to. Maybe they're sending it to ter…

Why should banks expect to be shut down over that?

Suppose I build a road. I would also have no idea what people are transporting on that road: maybe they’re moving drugs or sending stuff to terrorists, as you say. And it would be absolutely ludicrous to hold the road-builder in any way responsible for activities on the road.

At some point, a service is just a service and it should remain firmly bounded. Yes, bad people exist. No, we shouldn’t screw with every little thing just in case bad people use those things.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#277

Post by cynicalkane »

mcherm wrote: post #172
cynicalkane wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, at least, AML regulations are whatever the regulators say they are.

I call BS on that. It is true that banks will go a long way to try to satisfy banking regulators. But unless you have some evidence I am simply unwilling to believe that banking regulators can make up any restrictions they like without regard for the actual requirements of federal law.

The law is very complicated, but it generally gives regulators that actual power. They can make demands to specific banks. They can even make demands to specific banking systems; like, a regulator can go to a bank and say "You need to make your AML system do Y instead of X."

And the bank has to do it or they end up like HSBC. In fact, that was exactly why HSBC was fined billions. Regulators told them to do specific things, like use Form X in Iran instead of Form Y, or classify Mexico with risk measure N+1 instead of N, and they didn't do them. This is all in the various public records.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#278

Post by corobo »

palunon wrote: post #273
corobo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the corruption is reversible then the people doing the checking can also reverse it. They'll have both the corrupt version and the reverse-fixed version and just have to check an extra hash per thing they're scanning for

If the corruption is based on a value, different for each client (eg, a random number or the serial number of your motherboard), how do you reverse it ?

If you can't reverse it you can't seed it anymore and BitTorrent breaks

Even if that's not the case they'd just switch from grabbing a hash of the entire file to finding sub-hashes of the file or other fingerprints. You'd have to do a lot of corrupting to make this worth it.

If adobe premiere can sync my audio tracks when one is barely audible and the other has background noise you better believe there's a service that can find stored movies against a database of files

Also if you're already using BitTorrent why are you sharing these files on Dropbox et al

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#279

Post by [deleted] »

makecheck wrote: post #276
MichaelBurge wrote: post #11

File sharing services are listed as requiring pre-approval, so Seafile should've sent them an email before accepting it as payment: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full They're well within their rights to decline your business. If a bank told the government, "We have no absolutely no idea what our customers are doing with their money or who they're sending it to. Maybe they're sending it to ter…

Why should banks expect to be shut down over that? Suppose I build a road. I would also have no idea what people are transporting on that road: maybe they’re moving drugs or sending stuff to terrorists, as you say. And it would be absolutely ludicrous to hold the road-builder in any way responsible for activities on the road. At some point, a service is just a service and it should remain firmly bounded. Yes, bad peo…

[deleted]

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#280

Post by Strom »

mzd348 wrote: post #263

I was under the impression that European wire transfers were cheap (free), fast, and reliable. If that's true, why is something like PayPal even needed? Can't Seafile just have their clients transfer money to Seafile's account? Or are wire transfers not free for "retail" use like this?

One time SEPA transfers are already really simple, yes. Recurring ones, not so much. However SEPA Direct Debit [1] does look like an interesting new recurring system, with a compliance deadline of 31 October 2016. I will definitely be looking more into this, and probably will be trying it out in the wild.

[1] http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/sepa-direct-...

Post reply on HN