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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#101
post #60

Why does it seem like people working in tech have such a hard time keeping their personal and professional lives separate? I'm not just talking about incidents of poor conduct. It's also the fact people are exchanging insults and serious accusations over blog posts. It's not like the observers have the facts and evidence to make fair judgements on these matters. The whole trial by social media is really embarrassing…

Probably because people have been encouraged to think of coworkers as friends or family. My personal suspicion is simply the rise of social media enables mob like behavior over due process and rule of law.

And, I'd bet some of that encouragement happens because work-life balance is non-existent in many places and/or many people in tech simply don't have a deep social network outside of work because they tend to be younger/unmarried/relocated, etc.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#102
post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

Edit: Oops, I misread the parent, and I agree that yes, seeking legal help in a case like this is much harder than with robbery, which is hard enough. ----- Robbery doesn't really make for a good comparison here: - Did you fear for your own physical safety (e.g. that the thief or their friends/etc might retaliate) in reporting the crime to the police? - Did you known the thief? Did you have friends in common, or did…

I think that's his point. Dealing with the robbery was bad enough, how much worse must it be when dealing with sexual harassment and assault?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a rape allegation needed? A history of sexual harassment, rape or not, is enough for me to kick someone out of any community I'm a part of. There's the problem of false accusations, but I think there is enough "evidence" with this many coming forward (and many non-anonymously) and that Tor kicked him out too.

I certainly agree with your basic grounds, but there's a rape allegation needed when people are willing to spray paint "a rapist lives here" on your home.

Which I don't see anyone doing? Maybe in some other article/blog post but in the one here I see accusations of harassment and brief mentions that others are accusing of rape.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#104
Can anyone fill me in on more details of the Snowden connection there?

The rest of this article is quite thorough, and this topic certainly deserves more public discussion of what went wrong and what should be done in the future. Obviously this episode should unsettle those who have concluded that the claims are true, and even those who are uncertain should take a look at how these issues circulated for so long without being brought to a head.

The Snowden comment, though, confused me. Appelbaum accepted an award on his behalf, but as far as I knew that's about the extend of it. CCC and Assange have been tied into the community for long enough to have heard these things, and I can understand the comment about how they should have vetted Appelbaum.

Snowden (to my knowledge) had no real connections in this community, and Appelbaum only stepped up to bask in his glow once he was in hiding and largely restricted from 'vetting' others. There might be questions about why no one else who knew the claims stepped in, but barring more evidence I have trouble with the claim that Snowden has something to answer for.

I don't want to push too hard on one off-hand comment in a much larger piece, but I've already seen this used as ammunition to discredit Snowden: "If his actions are so good, why did he have anything to do with Appelbaum?" It seems like a bad meme to spread without some explanation of why he should have known about as-yet-unpublicized accusations.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#105
post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

Edit: Oops, I misread the parent, and I agree that yes, seeking legal help in a case like this is much harder than with robbery, which is hard enough. ----- Robbery doesn't really make for a good comparison here: - Did you fear for your own physical safety (e.g. that the thief or their friends/etc might retaliate) in reporting the crime to the police? - Did you known the thief? Did you have friends in common, or did…

Yes, I agree, robbery doesn't make a good comparison with rape because I had every reason to make the accusation of robbery, and such allegations are made on standards of evidence that most people agree on. Even though I knew it was going to be a pain in the ass, it was something that I had to do because 1) hard to file a insurance claim without a police report 2) kind of hard to just let a gun-wielding robber run around. I've had stuff stolen from me and I didn't report it, but armed-robbery is a whole different thing. I did feel paranoid for a few days afterward...after all, he had complete access to my phone and may have gleaned personal information from it before I was able to remotely lock/wipe it.

That said, it was still comically annoying to convince the detective. I was asked if I had been drinking (yes). I was asked why did I walk home before going to the police station (because without a phone, I had to get on the Internet to look up the nearest police station). I was asked why I didn't call 911 on a pay phone (...because, it literally did not occur to me that pay phones still work...?). I was asked why I walked from Chelsea through a "lively" section of town (Bleecker Street in Greenwich Village), a place known for prostitution, when I could've taken a more direct route (because it's a nice night, and I literally get lost everytime I wander off the grid in the West Village).

To say that the detective didn't believe me is an understatement. He actually accused me of soliciting a prostitute, and that my "lost" items were a result of me getting in over my head with a savvy prostitute.

But I didn't feel terribly offended because I knew I had evidence that could place me at the time of the incident, and other hard facts, such as how the robber ended up using my Netflix account to watch "Prison Break" in the days following the robbery.

A rape victim has none of that assurance. Even if the rape kit comes through, unless the rape is stranger rape, the rape kit does not contain hard facts about consent or intent. All those questions that were asked of me are going to be asked of the victim...except with far more difficult insinuations. After I told my roommate of my interrogation by the cops, she proceeded to tell me of her friends' similar stories...such as how a (female) cop was insistent on asking the victim why she would ever invite her friend (the accused) up to her apartment for tea.

And then there's the difficulty of answering those questions after having recently suffering the physical and emotional trauma of being raped. I have no idea what that feels like; my attacker was a jerk but otherwise left me unharmed.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#106
post #69

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

False accusations can and do happen all the time No, accusations are labelled as false all the time; genuinely baseless accusations are much rarer.

   baseless accusations are much rarer.
And where is the credible evidence for this claim? NB citing Wikipedia or a newspaper is not credible evidence.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#107
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even putting aside whether he is a literal rapist or not, it sounds like he is blatantly guilty of being a serial sexual harasser. The examples of public behaviour he is noted for in the article are completely beyond the pale.

Certainly, but it just concerns me how bad they're working to make this guy out as a rapist, when no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.

> when no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.

Reading threads like this (including the flagged comments) is that any wonder?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#108
Is there really a big problem with acceptable/legal behavior not being agreed upon? Isn't the problem usually that the guy claims "it was consensual?" Similarly, when police consider what a woman was wearing, isn't usually in the context of figuring out who's story they believe? In other words, the police aren't thinking "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him to his room and therefore deserved to get raped" but rather "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him up to his room so maybe his claims that it was consensual are true." I get that you don't want police to blame the victim, but isn't it just as/more important that they correctly figure out who the victim is?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#109
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most codes of conduct I've seen would have helped by: - making it explicit up-front that the behavior described is considered unacceptable by the community, which would help victims know that they have the support of the community - publicizing a way of reporting inappropriate behavior - setting up some kind of group governance for acting on reports All of those things seem incredibly helpful. And I'm sure I've misse…

Storytime: Sometime ago had materials stolen by a student who felt the need to get back at me. The kid did have a lengthy record of erratic behaviour, and I did report the incident to police. It caused great displeasure within the department, because the parents were wealthy and possible donors. I'm convinced that the student handbook prevents non-sexual harassment of staff, and it's equally true that police and HR a…

I wasn't arguing that a code of conduct solves all problems, especially those of abuse of power. Just that it would help a lot.

Sounds like you had a bad experience: I'm sorry to hear that. Imbalance of power is never fun… :-(

Re: “But he does good work.”

#110

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

> False accusations can and do happen all the time.

Can I check how you're defining "false accusation"? There are several different definitions.

EDIT after downvote: The different definitions include "nothing happened and the alleged victim made it all up", but also "it happened, and the alleged attacker actually did it, but was found not guilty, and so in law they're innocent and thus the accusation is false".

Clarifying which definition is being used helps conversation.

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