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Ethereum is Doomed

nakamotoinstitute.org

81–90 of 217 posts

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#81
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of Ethereum is turing completeness. Ethereum without Turing completeness already exists and its called Bitcoin. While this implementation of The Dao has failed, Ethereum is the only blockchain where implementing The Dao is possible.

There is a thing that advertises itself as being like Ethereum but without the Turing completeness. It is meant to be able to do more computation based stuff than Bitcoin, but without being Turing complete. However, they seem to have confused the halting problem not being computable with Godel's second incompleteness theorem? (They might have corrected this since I saw when they published something with this.)

>However, they seem to have confused the halting problem not being computable with Godel's second incompleteness theorem? (They might have corrected this since I saw when they published something with this.)

They seem to be related concepts. See http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725 for discussion of some interesting examples:

> [...] has explicitly constructed a one-tape, two-symbol Turing machine with 7,918 states, whose behavior (when run on a blank tape) can never be proven from the usual axioms of set theory, under reasonable consistency hypotheses. Adam has also constructed a 4,888-state Turing machine that halts iff there’s a counterexample to Goldbach’s Conjecture, and a 5,372-state machine that halts iff there’s a counterexample to the Riemann Hypothesis.

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#82
I wrote this originally in response to a post by cyphar (https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=11942889), but I'd really love a response from anyone with more knowledge or thoughts on how the law might interpret this situation in relation to already existing "virtual legal systems". cyphar wrote:

  "It was definitely fraud. Either it was a contract, in which case "taking $50 million without anyone's consent" doesn't pass the officious bystander test. Otherwise it wasn't a contract, so the default is still fraud (though in that case, the DAO would be the thing being defrauded rather than the investors)."
I'd like significantly more details on your legal theory for how this was "definitely fraud" or how "the default is fraud" if there was no legal contract, the split executor was a direct party to the agreement, and the terms of the agreement were followed. "$50 million" was not taken, 3.6 million or so "ether" was split out from the original smart contract/account, which may or may not end up having some dollar value.

In at least two previous threads [1, 2], comparisons were made to the MMOG EVE Online (developed by CCP Games), and I think the analogy raises some interesting questions. EVE is a self-contained artificial system that, so long the system framework itself is not exploited, is ruled entirely by code. It has a digital currency (ISK) that has an official conversion rate from real world fiat currency to ISK, and an unofficial ToS breaking (but non-criminal AFAIK) conversion rate from ISK back to fiat. CCP has nothing to do with this exchange, but exchanges for ether to other currencies are also 3rd party. Virtual items as well as ISK itself thus have calculable value, both within the system, in terms of time/rarity, and in terms of nation-state issued money. There are person-actor driven "contracts" of various sorts, and people driven markets. There is fraud, piracy, and pure chaotic destruction as well, and that's considered entirely within the system framework so long as the overall code rules of the world are not violated.

Given that, what exactly is the legal difference between the DAO and EVE Online? In EVE, if Alice attacks Bob, or infiltrates his organization, and steals/destroys a few hundred billion in ISK (equivalent to a few thousand dollars at current exchange rate), or sets up a fraudulent bank/scheme that makes off with hundreds of billions or trillions (this has actually happened), do you think Bob should be able to sue in a real world court of law? The essence of the situation looks similar/identical to me: that the parties are operating under a non-contract non-legal agreement to be governed within the a specific set of world rules, and that therefore any interactions within those world rules, however angry they might get about it on a personal level and whatever colloquial English they might use to describe it, creates no legal standing of any sort outside. If EVE client/server were hacked (the world rules distorted) it'd be an issue (though still not necessarily a legal one), just as if the Ethereum VM was hacked it'd be an issue, but if those were operating entirely as they should be then what's the basis of legal complaint? What's the generalized objective basis for court involvement in people agreeing to mess around with made up numbers on computers, even if other people decide to try to exchange those numbers for money?

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11925904

2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929208

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#83
post #25
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that it looks essentially like this: send(theEther, childDao) deduct(theEther, tokenHolder) But that you can get it to overflow the stack in between the two so that the send completes but the deduction no longer happens.

If you overflow the stack it throws and rolls back (which is another attack in certain circumstances). What killed TheDAO is basically that childDao called back the sender method, which sends again without having deducted yet. Do the deduct before the send, and the whole problem goes away.

Sending before deducting the money seems like an obvious design flaw that should have raised red flags. Is there any explanation for why it was implemented this way, and why it wasn't spotted by the developers?

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is doomed, who would trust a contract now with real "money"? Unless you have a mathematically rigorous proof that the contract is trustworthy I sure wouldn't.

Hopefully no on ever trusts a contract with 100 mill for a while, but for lower values and simpler contracts... absolutely i would.

Someone can write a bot to steal money from every open DAO of any size.

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#86
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turing completeness is not an implication of poor anything. All it does is remove certain kinds of generality from your proofs. You can still prove things, you just have to be careful stating what the assumptions are.

So you mean to tell me that taking away the ability to write generic programs to validate contracts is good design? See Rice's Theorem ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem ). Once you have turing completeness verifying any non-trivial program property starts requiring grad school experience and real proficiency with writing and verifying proofs. Most people, including programmers, do not have the training…

So instead of hiring a juris doctor lawyer to review my contracts, I'll hire a PhD computer scientist ;)

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#87
post #80
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scamming old people isn't a bug with the bank.

It's a bug in the system though.

No it isn't. People are meant to have free control over their money. Are advocating that banks should be required to protect people from themselves?

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#88
post #52
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What _legally_ exploitable bank bugs have you heard of? Keyword there being legally.

This exploit wasn't legal either. It was blatantly fraud. I've asked a lawyer for their opinion and it was a very simple question to answer. Contracts are never entirely literal and usually there are implied clauses in contracts. There is a very simple test called the "officious bystander": if there had been a neutral bystander who had asked "should we allow anyone to take $50 million dollars without our consent" the…

Right I would tend to agree. They really went out of their way though to say that the "code is the contract nothing else matters" I think that is where some of the doubt comes in.

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We want to allow recursion and loops. We want to be able to run arbitrary code. We just need to be a little wiser about how we do it.

Why on earth would you want that? How can such a staggering explosion of potential complexity justify itself?

TheDAO showed a $40m reason why we hackers want the complexity :-)

Re: Ethereum is Doomed

#90
post #82

I wrote this originally in response to a post by cyphar ( https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=11942889 ), but I'd really love a response from anyone with more knowledge or thoughts on how the law might interpret this situation in relation to already existing "virtual legal systems". cyphar wrote: "It was definitely fraud. Either it was a contract, in which case "taking $50 million without anyone's consent" doesn't…

Legally speaking, CCP goes out of its way to emphasize that isk are play tokens money with no cash value, and losing it all is part of the game. TheDAO/Ethereum supports exchanging ether for money. And anyone who lies about contract (beyond smiling and saying "here the contract code, sign it if you want" is commiting a fraud
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