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The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

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Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mistake is thinking that the relevant centralization is in the client-server architecture. The real reason that people have centralized social is because it's hard to let people authenticate and find their friends across domains. And even further, there are no good tools comparable to Facebook when it comes to subscriptions, notifications, updates, realtime collaboration, and all those other multi-user things th…

The discussion point of the article is how we can build such technologies for the kinds of things you just listed as needing a centralized domain. You claimed that they were describing your platform. But in the 'macro' sense, your platform is nothing like that -- it's a different flavour of Web app server, and fits in with the existing paradigm. Yes it may be part of a decentralised system (the Web), but any large We…

"It does nothing to address any of the points raised in the article"

Really? It seems that many of the actual quotes from the Fathers of the Internet in the article apply to existing web client-server architecture:

“We hoped everyone would be making their own web sites—turns out people are afraid to.” - Tim Berners-Lee

“People have their friends on Facebook and some photos on Flickr and their colleagues on LinkedIn. All they want to do is share the photos with the colleagues and the friends—and they can’t. Which is really stupid. You either have to tell Flickr about your Facebook friends, or move your photos to Facebook and LinkedIn separately, or build and run a third application to build a bridge between the two.” - Tim Berners-Lee

(by the way, we address this explicitly in our platform)

"Don’t discount Wordpress, it has been embraced by large numbers of people, perhaps the new web should have a decentralized Wordpress type of service." - Brewster Kahle

That doesn't sound like a necessarily serverless architecture to me.

Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#183
What I don't see among the raised call to action questions is "who pays the bills"? It's a very important question that explains the existence of silos they feel sad about.

The number of people using the internet won't shrink, but grow steadily. Facebook, Google has enormous operating costs and if they want to offer an alternative, a better future, those costs (at least bandwidth) should be factored in. The infrastructure is not free, but Facebook and Google users are not paying for it now (well, not with money). But imagine if we say that hey, here's the new web, it's awesome: it's decentralized, privacy is baked in and works everywhere. You just have to pay 0.01€ to access the New York Times. Per page. Then it would be a different situation if costs are not baked in the beginning.

Then there's video. Gazillion of videos are created per day and it grows exponentially as devices get better and better at recording ultra high resolution. Now, again, YouTube pays the bills and users get it in exchange for watching advertising. How do you want to offer an at least as good service as YouTube, but decentralized, privacy concerned and universally accessible and free?

What I see here is a problem that really exists, but the proposed radical new solutions are a bit misguided. You won't convince people with a sub par (but technically better) alternative you have to propose a iPhone level of wow, because only then you can get people's attention.

> Change the naming system, and stop thinking of the URL as a location—it’s a name, a format he picked to look like a Unix file name simply because people were comfortable with that.

That's a problem again, most people use Windows. Don't assume that the end users will instantly "get it" because it's more Unix like. This leads my to the next point.

Another question I haven't seen raised is User Experience. UX. Today's web is rather good at it, at least the top players embrace it very well. Most company websites now pay attention to get it somewhat right. Startups also pay a lot of effort to get UX right.

How about baking in good UX too to the new web? Today I only need to buy a $500 phone and I'm ready to consume the web. How? I type in a string and the rest is magically handled for me. I can read, watch anything. Can yo do the same with the decentralized web? I don't want to install anything, nor download terabytes of blockchain data, no encrypted distributed filesystem of somebody else's cat videos, waiting for hours to sync in. I also don't want pay for hosting somebody else's cat videos. Torrents work well for TV shows, but what would it look like on YouTube scale?

That's they key part here. To have a radically new internet, getting technologies right doesn't stop at replacing HTTP, HTML, CSS, DNS... you need to replace ISP-s and infrastructure providers too or at lest factor them in so that the new system is not born dead.

Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#184
post #40

Ok, a lot of people don't know the context for this. Last week, the Internet Archive ran the Decentralized Web Summit. It was an opportunity for new projects [1] to gather with prominent people in the industry [2]. It was productive and very fun. It also resulted in a bunch of news pieces, like this one, which have been hitting the HN FP for a week. Some of those articles have been better than others; a lot of them f…

I also attended the Decentralized Web Summit (the first 6 hours) and it was great. I hope they have this every year. The Summit was inexpensive, the venue at the Internet Archive building was cool, the speakers and panels were uniformly interesting, and the food was tasty. Good job by the organizers! I sometimes I feel like I am by my self on privacy and freedom issues. Very few of my non-tech friends & family get wh…

I have zero tech friends. Zero. Not one of my friends cares about privacy. Never have for as long as they have started using email in the late 90's. Me, I just gave up trying to raise the issue. So much so that I don't care anymore. It's a lost war. I'll take care of my own privacy whenever I care about it, and that's it. The rest of the population will deal with it when it gets too crazy. If it ever gets too crazy, and if they ever begin to care.

edit: Just to add: I know this is defeatist and negative, but it's the truth in my case. Got tired of it. It's easier if you have tech friends or activist friends and they share your concern.

Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#185
post #117
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaron Lanier has written about the hallowing out of the middle class due to intellectual and creative property being accepted as "free on the internet". As it stands the Googles of the world have private servers, patents and proprietary technology, ( and the money to protect themselves) but Google can scrape the creative resources of billions of individuals without paying them. In that regard a return to creative/int…

The middle class has never been involved in creative IP in huge numbers. What they were involved in is a lot of officework which has been automated away, and union-protected jobs that have now disappeared. Stuff like designing presentations now done in Powerpoint, typing up reports now autogenerated, doing typographical work now completely removed, manning and stocking a shop you can now bypass with Amazon, distribut…

You should read his book, "Who Owns the Future?"

He was mainly talking about how hard it is for individuals to capture value they create online. For example, it's very difficult to make money off of a viral video, popular Pinterest page, or a niche blog. Basically, only the biggest silos have reasonable monetization options, and the individual users who are creating value get screwed.

I agree there's a technology gap there, as would anyone watching the adblocker war. My biggest criticism is economic: there are so many people online that massive supply dwarfs demand, pushing prices to zero (Exhibit A: journalism). Conveniently, zero is the only price you can really charge online, and you get a feedback loop.

Patreon is my favorite answer to this problem so far.

Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#186
post #28

The web is already decentralized, but lack the convenience of Facebook et al. where you have a virtual identity, a friend list and can choose who get access to your images etc. This can however be accomplished with something like SSH keys, where your "friend" list is basically a list of public keys. And a small daemon that will let "friends" make queries like "is this a friend or a friend", etc. With a identity syste…

You've practically described ZeroNet. The difficulty lies in getting people to replace browsers with new software.

Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#187
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely, but I look at it from the direction of "No one has pulled in the good UX/UI people to do open source work" and that's simply a social/culture problem. I also think it's completely fixable, because all the reasons to do open source programming work apply to UI/UX work. Getting your work in front of a lot of people, gaining experience and notoriety, getting to scratch your own itch. There just was no Linux…

Mainly because of culture differences. Good UX/UI people don't bother to pay for their tools, like in most professions, and prefer to work in software like Photoshop, Illustrator, Sketch, Maya, Poser, you name it instead of constrain themselves to "worse is better" just to feel good. So in the end, most don't feel the need to join any FOSS community and rather build their portfolio on online design galleries and maga…

> Good UX/UI people don't bother to pay for their tools, like in most professions, and prefer to work in software like Photoshop, Illustrator, Sketch, Maya, Poser...

Doesn't Adobe continue to charge big $$$ for Creative Cloud? I don't understand how these statements mesh..

Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants their data on their own device. Nobody knows how their devices even work, let alone wants the responsibility of managing them. What they want is what they're (sorta, kinda) being given. My device takes my data and puts it somewhere where all my other devices know how to get it. I don't wanna know how it happens, I just want magic. We, who know how our devices work, and don't want anyone else managing our…

Speaking as a not-so-technical (never run a server) reader myself, what people like me want is not whether or not the data is on our own devices (that's an implementation detail) but the real issue of real reliability, privacy, and basically not having all the centralized bullshit that makes me feel helpless. None of the big systems run by the big corporations are actually reliable long-term. They change stuff all th…

Going decentralized doesn't protect you from other people as much as you'd hope. Check out Bitcoin's scaling crisis and the DAO hack. Decentralization just takes the power away from a profit motivated corporation and gives it too a loose group of developers with their own agendas.

You don't get control unless you really do it yourself.

Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#189
post #23
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key to ending massive surveillance is not tech, but social change.

Yes, people aren't like they were 20 years ago, they've been trained to give up their privacy for a few shinies.

Actually I think it is a continuously declining by generation.

For example my grandfather absolutely hated credit cards with a passion. He was convinced the credit card companies were an invasion of privacy as well as the antitrust acts (there are still only three credit bureaus). My parents and I despite his recommendations still use credit cards (he in fact later had to get a credit card later in life as it is fairly impossible shockingly to purchase/own a car with just check or cash).

Now I'm the old fart complaining to my younger peers about Facebook.

Re: The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Engineers to Reinvent the Web

#190
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mainly because of culture differences. Good UX/UI people don't bother to pay for their tools, like in most professions, and prefer to work in software like Photoshop, Illustrator, Sketch, Maya, Poser, you name it instead of constrain themselves to "worse is better" just to feel good. So in the end, most don't feel the need to join any FOSS community and rather build their portfolio on online design galleries and maga…

> Good UX/UI people don't bother to pay for their tools, like in most professions, and prefer to work in software like Photoshop, Illustrator, Sketch, Maya, Poser... Doesn't Adobe continue to charge big $$$ for Creative Cloud? I don't understand how these statements mesh..

Yes it does.

"Don't bother" as in like most professionals they see a value in paying for their tools and don't mind having to pay them.

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