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Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

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Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#21

Post by eropple »

rattray wrote: post #16
eropple wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I couldn't even find how to integrate Kotlin files into a Java project without using IntelliJ. I would suggest (and I'm not trying to bag on you with this) that this concern is more your unfamiliarity with the JVM than a failure of Kotlin, which is generally targeting Java and Scala developers. Kotlin operates pretty idiomatically in the Java universe and, as an experienced JVM developer who's comfortable with all…

> your unfamiliarity with the JVM Correct! > a problem with multi-language, multi-compiler projects that none of the major build systems on the JVM really handle admirably A bummer to hear – though I'm glad it's not just me. I tried using Kotlin with the Play Framework and did not have a great time. The hot-reloading features of Play didn't work with Kotlin at all, even with my attempts to `touch` a Java file wheneve…

Play isn't built for Kotlin and SBT is kind of a tire fire in general. I would suggest something more like Dropwizard for use with non-Scala JVM languages.

Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#22

Post by eropple »

maxxxxx wrote: post #19
tormeh wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just package the JVM with the application itself. Create a .bat/.exe/.sh/binary file that calls the JVM with your program as the argument. It's simple, but it will increase the download size of your program significantly (unless your program is huge - then it doesn't matter)

No installer needed? Just copy the files somewehre? That would be nice.

Sure. Plenty of Java-based games do this.

Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#24

Post by meddlepal »

rattray wrote: post #5
Scene_Cast2 wrote: post #2

I tried Kotlin during the Surprise Language round of Codeforces, a programming competition. I found it to be more verbose than a typical modern scripting language. Maybe it's the result of choosing the least of the evils for what it's trying to accomplish. The other drawback: the documentation. Kotlin's reference documentation (looking up how to properly use a call) does not have any examples. I'm not even talking ab…

Personally I don't much mind the added verbosity, coming from Ruby/Python/JS, so long as I don't have to write so many damn tests. Speaking from minimal experience, Kotlin still seems like a big net win here. Same is true of other languages with lightweight, static type systems like TypeScript/Flow, Swift, and Go. I agree about the documentation – I think it's one of the biggest reasons the language has seen such lit…

I agree the documentation needs work and I am using Kotlin in prod. JetBrains please take note!

Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#25

Post by winstonewert »

rattray wrote: post #5
Scene_Cast2 wrote: post #2

I tried Kotlin during the Surprise Language round of Codeforces, a programming competition. I found it to be more verbose than a typical modern scripting language. Maybe it's the result of choosing the least of the evils for what it's trying to accomplish. The other drawback: the documentation. Kotlin's reference documentation (looking up how to properly use a call) does not have any examples. I'm not even talking ab…

Personally I don't much mind the added verbosity, coming from Ruby/Python/JS, so long as I don't have to write so many damn tests. Speaking from minimal experience, Kotlin still seems like a big net win here. Same is true of other languages with lightweight, static type systems like TypeScript/Flow, Swift, and Go. I agree about the documentation – I think it's one of the biggest reasons the language has seen such lit…

What sort of tests don't you end up writing? I ask because I work in both dynamic and static languages, and find myself writing very similiar tests in each case.

Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#26

Post by highwind »

hnxx wrote: post #23

Kotlin reminds me of coffescript to JavaScript.

As far as I know, all CoffeeScript did was add bunch of syntactic sugar on top of JavaScript.

I believe Kotlin actually adds programming paradigm that's not in Java on top of terse syntax, i.e. real closure, operator overloading, pure object orientation, and more.

Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#27

Post by cageface »

rattray wrote: post #5
Scene_Cast2 wrote: post #2

I tried Kotlin during the Surprise Language round of Codeforces, a programming competition. I found it to be more verbose than a typical modern scripting language. Maybe it's the result of choosing the least of the evils for what it's trying to accomplish. The other drawback: the documentation. Kotlin's reference documentation (looking up how to properly use a call) does not have any examples. I'm not even talking ab…

Personally I don't much mind the added verbosity, coming from Ruby/Python/JS, so long as I don't have to write so many damn tests. Speaking from minimal experience, Kotlin still seems like a big net win here. Same is true of other languages with lightweight, static type systems like TypeScript/Flow, Swift, and Go. I agree about the documentation – I think it's one of the biggest reasons the language has seen such lit…

Absolutely. Dynamic languages only seem terse because you don't see all the associated test code inline. I've been programming in a mix of dynamic and statically typed languages for more than 15 years now and I'll take a modern statically typed language over a dynamic language any time if I have my choice.

It's a lot harder to design a static type system that's both expressive enough to be pleasant to use and strict enough to be useful. But we're getting there in modern languages like Rust, Kotlin, Swift etc.

Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#28

Post by charlieflowers »

I am a bit in a hurry, so I acknowledge I only quickly scanned the article. But it struck me as damning by faint praise.

Like a waiter advising, "Choose the chicken parm. It doesn't have any bones, all the salmonella has been cooked out, and it doesn't have any bad flavor."

If I'm going to be successfully pitched a programming language, I will need to see its power of expression or be shown how it solves some problems that other languages don't address well. Some "special sauce."

No offense intended ... that's just my quick take.

Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#29

Post by [deleted] »

charlieflowers wrote: post #28

I am a bit in a hurry, so I acknowledge I only quickly scanned the article. But it struck me as damning by faint praise. Like a waiter advising, "Choose the chicken parm. It doesn't have any bones, all the salmonella has been cooked out, and it doesn't have any bad flavor." If I'm going to be successfully pitched a programming language, I will need to see its power of expression or be shown how it solves some problem…

[deleted]

Re: Why Kotlin is my next programming language (2015)

#30

Post by Buttons840 »

Are there any decent languages that compile to readable Java? I think such a language would have a place in conservative Java shops, where management insists "we only use plain old Java around here". You could program in a "cleaner Java" translate it to vanilla Java, then commit, and nobody would know the difference.
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