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An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

nytimes.com

131–140 of 146 posts

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software automation is purely responsible for the automation of a legal sub-industry: discovery. The most common interchange format for paperwork is TIFF scans and actual paper. A significant cost in litigation work was paying a small army of associate lawyers to manually read through this mountain of paperwork to find information relevant to the case. OCR got good enough fast enough that within a single generation,…

Automation also caused the e-discovery field to explode In the first place. There was a brief period after explosion of email where e-discovery got huge. Before email people would mostly talk in person or on the phone. People had to review documents but it was hundreds or documents or thousands. But after email, word processing, etc, now there were tens of thousands or maybe even millions of files to search. Digital…

Here is a series of older New York Times articles detailing the offshoring of legal work to India:

Corporate America Sending More Legal Work to Bombay | MARCH 14, 2004 http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/14/jobs/corporate-america-sen...

Outsourcing to India Draws Western Lawyers | AUG. 4, 2010 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/business/global/05legal.ht...

Keeping Legal Work From Moving to India | August 6, 2010 http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/keeping-legal-w...

Legal Outsourcing Firms Creating Jobs for American Lawyers | JUNE 2, 2011 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/03/business/03reverse.html

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distribution of salaries in law is bimodal. Lawyers at the school mentioned have never commanded big law levels of compensation. The information is readily available, and it is why I chose not to attend a top 20 law school in 2007. http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

Where are the huge numbers of $160,000 salaries coming from? It's like a delta function right at that one level. Is that a standard starting package for major firms?

Yes, it's the standard package for "BigLaw." There used to be a database on Greedy Associates that showed the salary progression for each firm, but I can't seem to find it. They tend to move in lockstep with each other.

Graduates of the top 14 schools per US News and World Report rankings feed into these jobs. Some at lower ranked tier 1 schools end up in big law, but they are typically at the top of the class. I would bet that not a single student of the law school mentioned in the article ended up in with a $160k starting salary.

This was the best salary survey I could find: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/900045279/1st-Year-Salari...

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#133
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're talking about 2000 billable hours and 2500-3000 actual hours (50 to 60 hours a week). Of course, many engineers work similar hours, for far less than a NYC law associate.

Some engineers work that for 50k in the name of "working for a startup to be the next zucker".

A zucker is born every minute, they say.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#134

This is an unintended consequence of the 2005 US bankruptcy "reform" act. That act made it impossible to discharge student loans in bankruptcy. Because those loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, it's less risky to make student loans. Therefore, lenders don't have the same incentive as before to underwrite their loans. That is, it isn't quite as important to make sure their borrowers have a decent shot at repaying…

> lenders don't have the same incentive as before to underwrite their loans. That is, it isn't quite as important to make sure their borrowers have a decent shot at repaying the money.

But the students' incentive to make sure they can pay back the money is much higher.

If you're looking to underwriters to keep debt levels reasonable, you are looking in the wrong place. In any industry (school, real estate, etc.), their max is far higher than you should actually take.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#135
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicine has a few impossible problems. Family practice/internal medicine is arguably one of the most important roles, but many new doctors specialize so that they can better "cash in" on their M.D. degree. It's much cheaper to be proactive than reactive, but medicine doesn't think that way. Another problem is that Medicine spends a ton of money trying to keep old people alive for a few more days. For example, my gra…

> talked into have his pacemaker replaced i don't want to sound callice, but it seems like the "sales person" was trying to get more sales (as they are wont to do). A car sales man would talk you into replacing the car you don't need to replace because that's his job. It's up to the consumer to be clear about rejecting, and if an elderly isn't of sound mind to do so properly, their relatives should've been there to d…

> It's up to the consumer to be clear about rejecting, and if an elderly isn't of sound mind to do so properly, their relatives should've been there to do the thinking on their behalf.

My aunt was his caretaker, and she would've been there... But her 'job', for the last ... 10+ years, was caretaker for her parents, and it was easier for her emotions to allow the doctors to keep her father going.

My other grandfather had his defibrillator replaced when he would have liked to have been pushing daisies. I think his reasoning was that replacing the device would hopefully keep him from being even more of a burden to his daughter/caretaker.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see where you're coming from, but most people work for a paycheck rather out of higher level motives (like "I was meant to be doing this"). By the same measure, all professions would be "wrong".

Some professions (lawyer, doctor, law enforcement, clergy) should have as a fundamental motive the desire to help people rather than profit, since they have by their very nature the power to help or harm others.

In US it is becoming increasingly difficult to dedicate yourself to a cause. Since no one has your back you have to fend for yourself and your family. Good affordable healthcare, education, daycare, e.t.c. is not a given and they dedicate their lives to tend to their families and service their debts. PS: I assume you are comparing with Sweden

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with doing a job for money.

I'm not saying lawyers shouldn't be paid. I'm saying that the idea of going to law school solely to make money is not optimal for the public good.

> solely to make money is not optimal for the public good.

Is there any example where the sole pursuit of money is ever optimal for the public good? Or even that individual?

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#138
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. Where are the lawyers that will work for a measly $80/hr? The same amount which makes a lot of freelance programmers very happy.

Do members of both professions find clients with equal ease and reliability? A plumber or an electrician bills at a rate closer to double that, but i think it's partly because work is less steady.

I am pretty sure that a lawyer who did good work for $80/hr would be in high demand.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#139
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lede. Yeah, it's one of those words.

It's intentionally misspelled, ostensibly to avoid old-school newsroom confusion with "lead," the linotype separators that sat between lines on a printing press. It's debated whether it's a word that was actually used back then, though.

Thanks, both of you.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#140

When I went to university (sometime in the 18th Century) the idea was not vocational training but "learning to think" - at least that's what I was told. Most of my courses had underlying principles that if had attended lectures or worked hard I probably would have picked up. And I would assume the same is true of a top law degree - you may not be a lawyer, but fast thinking hard working articulate graduates are valua…

'When I went to university sometime in the 18th Century'- what ?? Did you discover the holy grail ?
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