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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

261–270 of 300 posts

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#261

This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved. The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so si…

> The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so since the beginning. The less intelligent either end up in a position where their labor can be exploited, or they're left to slow decline or even death, depending on how much society values keeping them alive.

This is a very new situation.

A few generations ago, the smartest or the dumbest still ended up in the same roles. Sure, some people were more productive or slightly more prosperous but that was probably more based on how much land your parents had.

It's only in the last 100ish years where those differences started to matter and since WW2, they're starting to compound where the "cognitive elite" rarely interact with people outside their normal circles (defined by intelligence or socio-economics, which are often similarly grouped).

For example, think of the 10-20 people you spend most of your time with... other than family, I'd wager they're all in the same/adjacent industries; probably use their mind, not their back in their daily work; and economically are very similar too.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#262

Anti-intellectualism runs deep in American society. Consider the words nerd, wonk, geek, brainiac, college boy, the negative Hollywood stereotypes, etc. The Big Bang Theory is the latest incarnation of that. My father learned to keep his book collection out of the living room.

I disagree. Citing a few labels is easy, Hollywood and popular culture have stereotypes for every kind of person. Everybody thinks they are the persecuted group. I think the opposite. America most certainly worships intellectuals, who control public education. So starting at age 5-6 kids are brainwashed into thinking that they are 'stupid' if they can't do arithmetic in their head, or remember all the inane rules of…

I think all the examples given to the contrary are telling. its all about exalting handfuls of people who 'got lucky' or just 'have good genes' so they get to be the modern equivalent of gladiators. They are there to distract the average joe, and its very effective.

All while, Intellectuals as a group rake in huge amounts of money and power by hooking each other up. We all 'know' that people with college educations have more credibility, respect and influence. The figures thrown around about athletes are pennies, and the token media coverage is meaningless.

As I said above athletes and musicians are the modern equivalent to gladiators. Are/were they popular? sure. But they essentially function as a distraction.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nerds get endorsement contracts all the time . They're called research grants. Just look at the example of PMERP [0], for one. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Morris_External_Researc...

Research grants are not endorsement contracts. Have you ever seen a Nobel prizewinner on a box of Wheaties? pitching Hertz rent-a-car? Me neither.

Elinor Smith, not a Nobel prize winner but a big-time nerd[0], was on the Wheaties box.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Smith#/media/File:Elino...

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is poverty itself that creates short term thinking that leads to those choices. This is why poverty is expensive for society, and investment by society to eliminate it would be paid back and much more.

No it isn't. Again, please read the RCTs I linked to. One of them addresses this exact question.

[deleted]

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#265
post #64

I disagree. American society has always had something of a love-hate relationship with intelligence, and there have always been examples like _Big Bang Theory_ venerating intelligence ('Sputnik moment' and astronauts, anyone?). Intelligence correlates with success cross-culturally and over time, so that's not in question. What is in question is the 'increasingly'; the only evidence offered, aside from anecdote, is th…

> So, if American society 'increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth' and 'as recently as the 1950s, possessing only middling intelligence was not likely to severely limit your life’s trajectory', why are the more intelligent, if anything, less likely to be successful when we go from 1920 to 2000?

Because gwern, we're in a technological stagnation and have been for many decades. The end of world war II temporarily gave America a boost, and the end of Communism temporarily gave the West a boost, but we're all being dragged down by a decline in meaningful technological progress (ex-Computation). This could be because US/West looked good in comparison and/or because a threat to the existing order evoked a competitive response that resulted in artificial rubber, jet engines etc.

I'm not claiming conflict is a good idea. I'm claiming that the above overshadowed a pattern that would have otherwise been much more obvious to us.

When circumstances diminish prospects, what use is there in higher intelligence? That would only be adaptive to express were the environment suitable. This is true whether we're on a timescale of decades (culture) or centuries (biology).

Note I do not claim we're zerohedged into oblivion. Just that the rate of technological change has changed to slower speed. It's a long term secular stagnation that has received relatively little attention until relatively recently because we are biased to notice things when they affect us and not before.

My pet hypothesis is that modern education, which became prevalent in that period you mention, is at least partially responsible for this. That modern education has a failure mode that reduces our prospects while demanding that we endorse more of it is suggestive to me of a bad memetic parasite that has infected the host and makes it do maladaptive things. Like how religion invariably starts with some transcendent quality but ends with the Inquisition and the One True Way.

In truth I think we all recognize that 'education' and education are not the same thing but one has gone from a proxy for the other into a masquerade for the other. If I'm right, then the evidence should be that a new form of education, perhaps as yet unrealized, will be able to dramatically supersede the existing institution. It is at least interesting that Silicon Valley is the only place that I know of that is successful and that takes the traditional education system much less seriously than other places. To overcome the inertia generated by the extant education system with its credentialing must take a powerful force.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research grants are not endorsement contracts. Have you ever seen a Nobel prizewinner on a box of Wheaties? pitching Hertz rent-a-car? Me neither.

Elinor Smith, not a Nobel prize winner but a big-time nerd[0], was on the Wheaties box. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Smith#/media/File:Elino...

She's a heroic pilot, not an intellectual.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#267

This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved. The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so si…

You're assuming that intelligence is a one-dimensional scale from dumb to smart. Actually, there are many different ways in which people can excel (or be deficient) cognitively, which most would agree makes them forms of intelligence. (Rather than through physical strength, which I can accept is not an "intelligence".)

A mention of the theory of multiple intelligences belongs here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligenc...

Many of the intelligences are things that have very evidently contributed to our collective heritage of beautiful, rich and diverse culture: "musical–rhythmic, visual–spatial, verbal–linguistic, logical–mathematical, bodily–kinesthetic, interpersonal, intrapersonal, and naturalistic".

The cartoon version of intelligent humanity as Homo Economicus that you invoke is kind of missing the point, IMO.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#268
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assessments are not consistent with facts. You imply that the media is a distorting lens, but then you go on to espouse views that come entirely from the media. I'm not sure I understand that. The US is becoming less religious, and it is the least religious it has ever been. People aren't increasingly idolizing stupidity or loving the rich, or Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders wouldn't have done as well as they di…

The US may be becoming less religious but there's a clear and growing trend of anti-intellectualism. Look at the anti-vaccine movement as an example. It has managed to convince many people that vaccines are risky, which is directly contrary to all scientific evidence.

Anti-vaxxers believe that they are intellectuals. They think that they are the only ones who can resist the propaganda of Big Pharma and see the underlying science.

You can't define "anti-intellectualism" as "people who disagree with me" (even if you're right).

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#269

As a non-American, and so 'judging' America only through the media, it does feel like the complete opposite. Deep ingrained anti-intellectualism, idolization of stupidity and love of the brazen and the rich. Scary decline of the sciences and rapid expansion of superstitions. Of course this does not apply to this here readership, but at least from an outside perspective we see 'idiocracy' surging onto the stage at bre…

Please don't post generalized putdowns of other people's countries here. They're too generic to be substantive discussion and too provocative to do anything but start conflicts. (I realize you didn't mean it that way, but that's what experience has taught us.)

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#270
post #204
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nordic countries have very high taxes("taking away one's fruits of labor"), and manage to do well.

Nordic countries have an ace up their sleeve that the United States does not: ethnic homogeneity. To acknowledge the elephant in the room, political discussion of government support policies always comes with a racial dog whistle. The subtext is that the government wants to take your money and give it to those people. It sometimes bubbles to the surface, such as with Reagan's welfare queen in a Cadillac comments, but…

The most interesting thing about many naive Americans' view of the Nordic 'paradise' is the lack of understanding as to how it is able to exist: a small population of homogenous people of similar ethnicity, shared culture, and history that has high GDP per capita and low levels of corruption.

These same people tend to be on the side of unrestricted immigration and mixing of cultures and ethnicity.

What they don't understand is that the average person will not want socialism if it means taking from one group and giving disproportionately to another. This is why America will never successfully have Nordic like social systems, and why some of the Nordic countries themselves (Sweden) are already beginning to show signs that the system will not work if is abused by some groups in ways it wasn't before.

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