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Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

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Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#11
post #4

This was a great system. The more I research into Xerox's papers and manuals for Interlisp-D, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar systems, the more I become convinced it was a big step back to the industry the adoption of inferior systems like UNIX. Thankfully many traces of those ideas are now in Windows, Mac OS X, Android and iOS, Language Playgrounds and many IDE workflows.

Mass market products are rarely best in class, they are all about offering 'good enough' at commodity prices. Unix won because it was cheap, widely available and got the job done.

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#12
post #4

This was a great system. The more I research into Xerox's papers and manuals for Interlisp-D, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar systems, the more I become convinced it was a big step back to the industry the adoption of inferior systems like UNIX. Thankfully many traces of those ideas are now in Windows, Mac OS X, Android and iOS, Language Playgrounds and many IDE workflows.

I agree. UNIX has some brilliant ideas, like isolated functions (executables) connected by streams, but beyond that it made a lot of mistakes that we are still dealing with today.

The biggest one being a C-centric view of programming that has cost the world untold billions of dollars when dealing with untrusted data. It could have used a statically analyzable functional middleware of some kind, falling back to micro optimization only when needed - the way that Clojure works with say, JavaScript.

The other major failing that I see is overlooking ideas from ZFS, that the filesystem can act as a virtual tree over any storage medium, so UNIX wastes a lot of time on things like dependency hell, permissions, and distinguishing between file and socket streams or local and remote processors. It could have jailed each process in its own sandbox where copies of libraries are reference counted by the filesystem, running in a virtual storage and thread space. We're just now seeing the power of that with Vagrant and Docker (technically it took so long to get here due to virtualization resistance by Microsoft and Intel).

My other main gripe is more about approach than technology. UNIX (and LINUX especially) stagnated decades ago due to the RTFM philosophy. The idea being that to be proficient in UNIX, one had to learn the entirety of the operating system. This goes against one of the main tenets of computer science, that we are standing on the shoulders of giants. So I really appreciate how passionately the Alto tried to make computing and programming approachable to the masses.

I keep hoping someone will release a portable lisp machine that can run other OSs under virtualization and release us from these antiquated methodologies..

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#13
post #11
post #4

This was a great system. The more I research into Xerox's papers and manuals for Interlisp-D, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar systems, the more I become convinced it was a big step back to the industry the adoption of inferior systems like UNIX. Thankfully many traces of those ideas are now in Windows, Mac OS X, Android and iOS, Language Playgrounds and many IDE workflows.

Mass market products are rarely best in class, they are all about offering 'good enough' at commodity prices. Unix won because it was cheap, widely available and got the job done.

The famous article "The rise of 'Worse is Better'" describes the victory of Unix/C over the "right thing" style of design : https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html

Edit: I've changed the link. Thanks for letting me know about the bad redirect, golergka. The jwz link looked fine to me; it's pretty obnoxious if the site does a NSFW redirect.

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#14
post #5
post #2

My first impressions of it are that the portrait oriented monitor actually looks very stylish. There is something almost futuristic about it.

These days, some displays allow you to rotate them between landscape and portrait orientiation. At work, I have a 24 inch TFT in portait mode which I use mostly for coding (and other tasks where vertical space is valuable). It is very nice, because e.g. in text processing, a whole page fits the screen nicely. In a way, we have that with tablets and phones, too.

For years I've used an old 19" LCD in portrait mode next to a new-ish 24". The display heights (after rotating the 19") are identical, and the vertical resolutions are almost identical (1080 vs 1024). It's a cheap/free way of getting a wider screen. Usually I keep some paper or reference document on the 19" and have two side-by-side terminals on the 24".

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#15
post #13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass market products are rarely best in class, they are all about offering 'good enough' at commodity prices. Unix won because it was cheap, widely available and got the job done.

The famous article "The rise of 'Worse is Better'" describes the victory of Unix/C over the "right thing" style of design : https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html Edit: I've changed the link. Thanks for letting me know about the bad redirect, golergka. The jwz link looked fine to me; it's pretty obnoxious if the site does a NSFW redirect.

Warning: this link now redirects to a NSFW image about HN being a DDOS.

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#16
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The famous article "The rise of 'Worse is Better'" describes the victory of Unix/C over the "right thing" style of design : https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html Edit: I've changed the link. Thanks for letting me know about the bad redirect, golergka. The jwz link looked fine to me; it's pretty obnoxious if the site does a NSFW redirect.

Warning: this link now redirects to a NSFW image about HN being a DDOS.

No the party didnt forget to check the link or have some joke in mind, jwz's site always does if you have HN as a referrer.

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#17
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warning: this link now redirects to a NSFW image about HN being a DDOS.

No the party didnt forget to check the link or have some joke in mind, jwz's site always does if you have HN as a referrer.

JWZ may know his stuff, but damn he can be a salty asshole...

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the party didnt forget to check the link or have some joke in mind, jwz's site always does if you have HN as a referrer.

JWZ may know his stuff, but damn he can be a salty asshole...

I usually like to leave more substantive comments on HN, but I don't think he would be mad if I said "that's kind of his thing."

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#19
post #4

This was a great system. The more I research into Xerox's papers and manuals for Interlisp-D, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar systems, the more I become convinced it was a big step back to the industry the adoption of inferior systems like UNIX. Thankfully many traces of those ideas are now in Windows, Mac OS X, Android and iOS, Language Playgrounds and many IDE workflows.

I agree. UNIX has some brilliant ideas, like isolated functions (executables) connected by streams, but beyond that it made a lot of mistakes that we are still dealing with today. The biggest one being a C-centric view of programming that has cost the world untold billions of dollars when dealing with untrusted data. It could have used a statically analyzable functional middleware of some kind, falling back to micro…

> The biggest one being a C-centric view of programming that has cost the world untold billions of dollars when dealing with untrusted data.

That's pretty simple to explain: all those other options were just way too slow to get the kind of performance required out of the hardware available at the time. The difference was simply too large to be ignored.

It's all nice and good to theorize about how the past should have been, but without UNIX you probably wouldn't be writing any of this on the medium you're currently using.

It has its flaws and it is far from perfect but at the time it fit the bill nicely.

The real problem is that we are categorically unable to move on when better options are around. There is a large amount of silliness involved when it comes to making responsible choices in computing, lots of ego, lots of NIH. Those are the real problems, not that UNIX was written in C.

Re: Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s GUI computer

#20
post #4

This was a great system. The more I research into Xerox's papers and manuals for Interlisp-D, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar systems, the more I become convinced it was a big step back to the industry the adoption of inferior systems like UNIX. Thankfully many traces of those ideas are now in Windows, Mac OS X, Android and iOS, Language Playgrounds and many IDE workflows.

I agree. UNIX has some brilliant ideas, like isolated functions (executables) connected by streams, but beyond that it made a lot of mistakes that we are still dealing with today. The biggest one being a C-centric view of programming that has cost the world untold billions of dollars when dealing with untrusted data. It could have used a statically analyzable functional middleware of some kind, falling back to micro…

Err, are we not taking things out of historical context?
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