American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth • Hacker News Board

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#181

Post by willholloway » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #161

MawNicker wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where everyone literally has the same power over everyone else I'm sympathetic to these sorts of ideals. I think you've gone too far though. I want Elon Musk to be able to exist. The working world is a lot shittier than it needs to be. It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. The owners, however benevolent, know this. They design our jobs with it in the bac…

It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. In that case, how come millions of non-workers aren't dead? [edit: to clarify, I mean in the US and similar western countries.]

Depends on why they aren't working. If they have no capital, and no pension they better be in a protected class, like students, seniors, disabled, single mothers with children or be very attractive.

Otherwise there is almost no financial support coming their way in the United States, except for a meager food ration that has to be primarily carbohydrates, and basic health care.

Everyone will hate them, they will be chased out of any dwelling they inhabit by a man with a gun (eviction), and death will come for them eventually, as it does for us all, but for the destitute it moves with all possible haste.

And that is why there is no army of millions of non working people in the US, getting by on welfare. That is a middle class myth. The only group that could do this are those who qualify for S.S disability.

Most of the non-working are the rich. A lot of the people we think of as non-workers are getting by by other means, and a lot of it is the underground economy, and most of that is drug sales.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#182

Post by willholloway » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 1:56 PM UTC

facetube wrote: post #179

yummyfajitas wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. In that case, how come millions of non-workers aren't dead? [edit: to clarify, I mean in the US and similar western countries.]

I can show you some gravestones if you'd like. The US health system is essentially inaccessible to those with chronic but treatable conditions who aren't continually holding down relatively good jobs. I can go and get my major depression treated at $5 per minute because I have an employer that pays $20k per year for health insurance. I know families of five whose household income is less than my health insurance prem…

Obama (almost) fixed this. The Affordable Care Act extended Medicaid coverage from the absolute indigent, to those making up to 133% of the poverty line in their state, something around $16,000 per year.

The group that is in a bad spot are those right above that number, as even though their premiums are subsidized, deductibles are anywhere from 2400 to 6400 per annum.

That said, you are right the dead are everywhere.

Poverty kills. It deteriorates every system of the body, and it's first target is the brain.

The status quo is an evil waste of humanity, and poverty is grossly expensive and inefficient.

UBI can't come fast enough.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#183

Post by ecopoesis » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

sebastianconcpt wrote: post #155

WalterBright wrote: post #84

Anti-intellectualism runs deep in American society. Consider the words nerd, wonk, geek, brainiac, college boy, the negative Hollywood stereotypes, etc. The Big Bang Theory is the latest incarnation of that. My father learned to keep his book collection out of the living room.

But the Big Bang Theory show is Reverse-Anti-intellectualism.

The Big Biang Theiry is "nerdface." The audience is lsughing at the characters, not with them.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#184

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #181

yummyfajitas wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. In that case, how come millions of non-workers aren't dead? [edit: to clarify, I mean in the US and similar western countries.]

Depends on why they aren't working. If they have no capital, and no pension they better be in a protected class, like students, seniors, disabled, single mothers with children or be very attractive. Otherwise there is almost no financial support coming their way in the United States, except for a meager food ration that has to be primarily carbohydrates, and basic health care. Everyone will hate them, they will be ch…

Most of the non-working are the poor. 60% of the poor don't work at all, and 89% don't work full time. See table 3.

http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publication...

Are you claiming that there are more than 15.6 million non-working rich people? What do you mean by "rich"?

Also, 45% of poor people own their own home. Who is evicting them, the taxman?

http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf

Lastly, disability fraud as a substitute for welfare is a huge problem that no one is attempting to solve. NPR did an expose on it: http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#185

Post by pappyo » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:08 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #163

guscost wrote: post #43

I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades. This overlaps with one of the better suggestions from this article. In general I think these are hit or miss, and maybe too academ…

Absolutely. The billable rate for journeyman auto mechanics is $100/hr. Simultaneously, we have a massive and growing glut of trained attorneys earning nothing.

I think you just pointed out the problem with vocational education. Going to law school is a vocational education, as is getting an education to become a mechanic. Vocational educations take years (sometimes almost a decade) to complete. From the time you start your vocational education to the time you finish it, the market can drastically change (see Law and nursing). That lucrative job that you thought was waiting for you...isn't. What then?

What happens to mechanics if cars become fully automated? Will we need that many mechanics?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#186

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #182

facetube wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can show you some gravestones if you'd like. The US health system is essentially inaccessible to those with chronic but treatable conditions who aren't continually holding down relatively good jobs. I can go and get my major depression treated at $5 per minute because I have an employer that pays $20k per year for health insurance. I know families of five whose household income is less than my health insurance prem…

Obama (almost) fixed this. The Affordable Care Act extended Medicaid coverage from the absolute indigent, to those making up to 133% of the poverty line in their state, something around $16,000 per year. The group that is in a bad spot are those right above that number, as even though their premiums are subsidized, deductibles are anywhere from 2400 to 6400 per annum. That said, you are right the dead are everywhere.…

2016 deductibles can be $6,850 for an individual and $13,700 for a family.

Of course the Medicaid limit is higher for the family.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#187

Post by justratsinacoat » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

petra wrote: post #176

lucio wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is everybody talking as if the communist experiment wasn't already tried? If you forcibly remove "freedom" to keep the fruit of your labor, you'll get general misery and poverty. It's false that "things will be done but slowly", the reality is that things will not get done at all, meaning lack of everything and the distribution of misery. For real examples look into any communist country. https://www.youtube.com/…

Nordic countries have very high taxes("taking away one's fruits of labor"), and manage to do well.

Shut the fuck up! The hivemind is speaking. Non-neoliberal perspectives are terrible and advocacy for them will be punished by context-free links and downvotes.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#188

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:11 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #182

facetube wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can show you some gravestones if you'd like. The US health system is essentially inaccessible to those with chronic but treatable conditions who aren't continually holding down relatively good jobs. I can go and get my major depression treated at $5 per minute because I have an employer that pays $20k per year for health insurance. I know families of five whose household income is less than my health insurance prem…

Obama (almost) fixed this. The Affordable Care Act extended Medicaid coverage from the absolute indigent, to those making up to 133% of the poverty line in their state, something around $16,000 per year. The group that is in a bad spot are those right above that number, as even though their premiums are subsidized, deductibles are anywhere from 2400 to 6400 per annum. That said, you are right the dead are everywhere.…

Western-style poverty (i.e. little work + wealth transfers adding up to approx $15-20k/year) doesn't kill.

We have various randomized control trials which demonstrate this.

Giving poor people money doesn't significantly affect health: http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/2/687

The medicaid expansion similarly had no statistically significant effect on health, though it does make people feel better: https://www.nber.org/oregon/

The RAND experiment back in the day had similar results based on variation in coinsurance levels: http://www.rand.org/health/projects/hie.html

Why do you keep spreading myths?

Now, you may have discovered some correlations between poverty and bad health. As correlation is not causation, and an RCT is the best way to check. So apparently the correlation is caused by something else - i.e., some third factor which makes people both poor and unhealthy.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#189

Post by arisAlexis » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:12 PM UTC

In the European Commissiom aka the public sector the only test you take to go into any position even clerical is an IQ test. I can't comprehend this it should be the other way around. Since maximizing profit is not so important but serving the public is.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#190

Post by hellbanner » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:15 PM UTC

pappyo wrote: post #185

Spooky23 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. The billable rate for journeyman auto mechanics is $100/hr. Simultaneously, we have a massive and growing glut of trained attorneys earning nothing.

I think you just pointed out the problem with vocational education. Going to law school is a vocational education, as is getting an education to become a mechanic. Vocational educations take years (sometimes almost a decade) to complete. From the time you start your vocational education to the time you finish it, the market can drastically change (see Law and nursing). That lucrative job that you thought was waiting…

Yes, mechanics to build the machines to repair them in a fully automatic fashion.

For a thought experiment on this, check out http://thelightsinthetunnel.com/ which explores the idea that eventually humans will stop inventing because we'll have everything we need