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Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

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Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#121

Post by madaxe_again »

DominikR wrote: post #111
timtammittee wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Where do you get this information. If you talk about asylum seekers (The majority of the current inbound traffic), you can look up the numbers yourself they are published as datasets by the UNHCR [1] Looking at the top 5 origin states of asylum seekers for 2015 and 2016 reveals: Syrian Arab Rep. 30.5% Afghanistan 18.1% Iraq 11.9…

This data is incomplete. For Germany it says that they had 440.000 asylum applications in 2015 even though Merkel herself said that they took in over a million in 2015. Apparently it was 1.1 million registered refugees for Germany alone in 2015. Of these only 476.649 submitted a formal asylum request. Edit: And you can bet that there's a large number of migrants that didn't even register, the minister of interior in…

So, you think, if dropped into, say, Uzbekistan, you would immediately understand their language and bureaucratic processes? Because that seems to be your expectation of migrants.

By any chance, do you support pegida? Or are they too left wing?

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#122

Post by jkot »

timtammittee wrote: post #81
jkot wrote: post #19

It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people in Turkey for the same money. Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Refugees who can not afford $4000 for transport are left without help. It all started when Turkey asked for humanitarian aid. Merkel would not…

> Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Where do you get this information. If you talk about asylum seekers (The majority of the current inbound traffic), you can look up the numbers yourself they are published as datasets by the UNHCR [1] Looking at the top 5 origin states of asylum seekers for 2015 and 2016 reveals: Syrian Arab Rep. 30.5% Afghanistan 18.1% Iraq 11.9…

I am saying that because they are very specific in what country they apply for asylum. Only tiny fraction of people who pass through Greece applied for asylum here. Not even Hungaria and Austria(!) are good enough. Most people want to Germany, Sweden or similar country.

And somehow Turkey is not considered safe country. But Ukraine with actual war is just fine and EU does not take refugees from there.

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#123

Post by DominikR »

hayao wrote: post #84

I'm fully in favour of MSF's stance, asylum seekers must have their rights recognised. These people are fleeing war and, adding to be forced to remain in overcrowded camps in dire conditions, they're even deprived of legal representation. It's a country's duty to receive refugees, according to the 1951 Refugee Convention and to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights[1]. EU's action gives the precedence for other s…

Once they arrive in Turkey or Greece their lives are not threatened anymore. Where does it say that refugees can pick and choose wherever they'd like to live.

Why don't you import them to San Francisco? I guess life is even better there than in some small German town. Or how about Monaco or Disney Land?

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#124

Post by toyg »

petra wrote: post #74
rvense wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one (perfectly valid) way of looking at it. An (IMO equally valid) way of looking at it is that the EU is not 'the enemy' but rather someone you hoped was your ally. But now they're acting against your mission, in a way you feel is unacceptable. They've changed and you can no longer stand with them. In that situation, disassociating from them (with no regard for the tactics) is a sign of integrity.

Even so, their view is a bit unrealistic - if the people of the EU don't want to accept refugees, and leaders can't convince them otherwise, why should leaders disobey the people ? Altough one could critize the way refugees we're handled by the authorities - instead of mixing them with the population and surfacing all kinds of tensions, they should have closed, but safe and decent refugee camps, and seperate refugees…

"Camps" in Europe do exist (for all the bad imagery from the last century of European history that the word evokes), but they're chronically overwhelmed. Authorities don't want to fund them, local population often goes NIMBY for the same reasons they don't want them in the country altogether. Like prison, camps tend to amplify and reinforce bad behaviour from all sides.

> and also solve the issue of economic immigration

Yeah, like that was easy :) most immigrants actually come from failed states like Eritrea, which you just can't "fix" in any easy way. I do agree that economic migrants should be treated differently from war refugees; as in, we should find ways to power economic and social programs that would directly allow economic migrants to return. Pay them to dig holes over there, if necessary. It won't fix the country, but it should stem the flow.

War refugees should be hosted and treated humanly though. Their conflicts are often "our" direct fault and we have an obligation to treat them fairly. US/UK/France are particularly bad in this, constantly getting involved in all sorts of international diatribes while rarely (if ever) actually picking up the tab when things go to hell.

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#125

Post by madaxe_again »

curiousgal wrote: post #26
jkot wrote: post #19

It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people in Turkey for the same money. Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Refugees who can not afford $4000 for transport are left without help. It all started when Turkey asked for humanitarian aid. Merkel would not…

>Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war Exactly this. The reasonable thing to do would've been to differentiate refugees from others and proceed to help the refugees because there's no question about that. Edit: Wait, I take it by the downvotes that you think people should not be screened and that everyone who shows up at the borders is a distressed refugee fleeing war?…

Ah, I see. So you differentiate between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor?

Tell me, how do you tell them apart? Do they wear badges?

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#126

Post by timtammittee »

DominikR wrote: post #111
timtammittee wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Where do you get this information. If you talk about asylum seekers (The majority of the current inbound traffic), you can look up the numbers yourself they are published as datasets by the UNHCR [1] Looking at the top 5 origin states of asylum seekers for 2015 and 2016 reveals: Syrian Arab Rep. 30.5% Afghanistan 18.1% Iraq 11.9…

This data is incomplete. For Germany it says that they had 440.000 asylum applications in 2015 even though Merkel herself said that they took in over a million in 2015. Apparently it was 1.1 million registered refugees for Germany alone in 2015. Of these only 476.649 submitted a formal asylum request. Edit: And you can bet that there's a large number of migrants that didn't even register, the minister of interior in…

I admit that these numbers do not include people who did not apply for asylum.

But in your own source theres a chart showing the distribution of all 1.0919M registered entries.

39.2% Syrian 14.1% Afganistan 11.1% Irak

I'd say even though not all of the 1.1M register as asylum seekers (or have not yet registered). Their distribution is quite similar to that of the people who registered.

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#127

Post by DominikR »

madaxe_again wrote: post #121
DominikR wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This data is incomplete. For Germany it says that they had 440.000 asylum applications in 2015 even though Merkel herself said that they took in over a million in 2015. Apparently it was 1.1 million registered refugees for Germany alone in 2015. Of these only 476.649 submitted a formal asylum request. Edit: And you can bet that there's a large number of migrants that didn't even register, the minister of interior in…

So, you think, if dropped into, say, Uzbekistan, you would immediately understand their language and bureaucratic processes? Because that seems to be your expectation of migrants. By any chance, do you support pegida? Or are they too left wing?

I don't even understand what point you are trying to make (aside from telling me that you hate me) as it is totally unrelated to my previous comment.

Do you have anything substantial to add? Again, 1.1 million refugees registered, only 467.xxx of them submitted an asylum request and on top of that there's a large number of refugees that are not even registered.

Therefore the 60% figure cannot be correct for anyone who is able to calculate properly.

Edit: Sorry can't create a comment to reply, that's why I'll reply here again to madaxe_again:

There is no need for you to appeal to my emotions, I'm interested in facts here. And yes, the default should be and always is "I don't believe you" because you have to prove that you are really a refugee whose life is under threat in his home country.

Right wing and nationalistic parties are on the rise in Europe precisely because the current governments are waving these kinds of statistics around that clearly give a false impression of the situation instead of telling the truth.

They wilfully ignore our own laws and not just enforce an open border policy but even invite everyone who'd like to come like Merkel did in 2015 with the rationale that it is not possible to stop this migration, while Hungary and Macedonia were perfectly capable to do it by constructing a fence and controlling the border.

And then they also had the gut to tell us that these migrants are comparable or in case of Syrians even better educated than our population and that's why we'll prosper from these migrants. After a year statistics then showed that the majority couldn't even read. This must be a sick joke, who comes up with this stuff?

I don't like getting lied to. As long as this lying doesn't stop the right wing will continue to rise and at some point the EU will collapse.

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#128

Post by sorenjan »

madaxe_again wrote: post #117
ThomPete wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. Fleeing to a nearby country is one thing. Being able to move all the way to Germany, Denmark or Sweden isn't exactly being fleeing war anymore. The irony is that it's those with most money who can afford to move the furthest away from the refugee camps and many of those who do are men, leaving their family behind hoping to be able to get them to the country they end up in 60% according to some a…

You buy the propaganda line then? Are the other 40% IS in your book? By your argument we should just let them all sleep in a ditch next to the border of the country they fled, because that's good enough? That is more or less what is happening now. Tell me. If Britain were engaged in a shooting war, would you consider the Isle of Man safe? Or would you go further?

What's your take on the camps in France [0] filled with migrants trying to get to Britain? Which wars in France are they fleeing?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calais_Jungle

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#129

Post by [deleted] »

DominikR wrote: post #127
madaxe_again wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you think, if dropped into, say, Uzbekistan, you would immediately understand their language and bureaucratic processes? Because that seems to be your expectation of migrants. By any chance, do you support pegida? Or are they too left wing?

I don't even understand what point you are trying to make (aside from telling me that you hate me) as it is totally unrelated to my previous comment. Do you have anything substantial to add? Again, 1.1 million refugees registered, only 467.xxx of them submitted an asylum request and on top of that there's a large number of refugees that are not even registered. Therefore the 60% figure cannot be correct for anyone wh…

[deleted]

Re: Doctors Without Borders doesn't take money from EU anymore

#130

Post by DominikR »

timtammittee wrote: post #126
DominikR wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This data is incomplete. For Germany it says that they had 440.000 asylum applications in 2015 even though Merkel herself said that they took in over a million in 2015. Apparently it was 1.1 million registered refugees for Germany alone in 2015. Of these only 476.649 submitted a formal asylum request. Edit: And you can bet that there's a large number of migrants that didn't even register, the minister of interior in…

I admit that these numbers do not include people who did not apply for asylum. But in your own source theres a chart showing the distribution of all 1.0919M registered entries. 39.2% Syrian 14.1% Afganistan 11.1% Irak I'd say even though not all of the 1.1M register as asylum seekers (or have not yet registered). Their distribution is quite similar to that of the people who registered.

Most applicants from Afghanistan are not granted asylum at the moment. The problem is that Afghanistan isn't willing to take them back.

Also it isn't like everyone from Iraq is given asylum.

Oh and btw - NGOs in Europe are actively teaching prospective asylum seekers to say they are from Syria. Most of them do not even speak Arabic.

Edit: reply to comment below:

Please see this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=11928413

"More than half of those fleeing to Europe from the Middle East and Africa are economic migrants and not asylum seekers fleeing the horrors of war in Iraq or Syria, according to first vice-president of the European Commission, Frans Timmermans.

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