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An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

nytimes.com

21–30 of 146 posts

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the cause of this? Computer automation? More work can be done by paralegal? Fewer court cases?

Peak legal. Automation is affecting discovery and the demand for the junior lawyers that used to do it, but there just isn't the demand growth to keep up with the supply growth of lawyers.

Yeah, it's the perfect storm of automation and an industry that assumed growth would go like gangbusters forever. And by "industry" I mean law schools - law schools were (and maybe still are) big profit centers for universities, so they were expanded as quickly as possible.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#22

It seems that the story is a that a once upwards spiral is now spiraling downwards, and people and institutions must adjust. At one point in time, law was lucrative, and there were not enough lawyers. Schools responded by growing in size and in tuition. Students could justify the loans because there was a high chance that the "investment" would pay off. Fast forward a few decades and law as an industry is contracting…

It's tempting to counter by citing the "lucrative" special case: The top 5-10% of T14 law schools who receive entry-level associate salaries of $160K/year base + bonus.

However, pricing power appears limited, creating a ceiling on wage increases. To this point, Vault100 firms have recently trickled out pay increases to $180K/year for incoming associates. Clients have laughed and said, "Good for your employees, but you're not passing those costs onto us!" [0]

[0] http://on.wsj.com/28LIgM6

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#23
Why are lawsuits so expensive if there are so many broke lawyers aching for a job? It seems like a company could pay them a middling salary of $70k/year to handle ongoing lawsuits, rather than the $300-$700/hour that other lawyers demand.

Obviously not for your big Oracle vs. Google lawsuits or where the entire company is riding on it, but for anything less than that. For example, every public company gets sued by opportunists every time there's a merger or acquisition, or every patent troll expects nobody to fight their case because it's so expensive. There's lots of little things that come up where you just need someone to do the paperwork.

It seems like you could hire a couple broke lawyers to fight patent trolls, and the cost wouldn't run into millions when your attorney books a ton of hours.

I've considered using paralegals to write up paperwork to be reviewed by an actual lawyer. But it seems like there should be a 'cheap broke lawyer' option in between the two, who would probably do a fine job.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#24
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the cause of this? Computer automation? More work can be done by paralegal? Fewer court cases?

Mostly automation. E-Discovery companies have dramatically reduced the cost for discovery. It used to require a room full of lawyers to discover evidence but now it is possible to have one person in a room full of computers to automate 10 such cases.

How much have legal costs to the client been reduced due to this increase in efficiency?

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#25
post #8

I still think certain professional careers will always exist for the most passionate and high quality candidates (or, alas, the best connected).

I agree, but I'd add that the amount of money people are willing to pay for that quality will fall dramatically if technology provides a cheap alternative. The cost of education will have to fall in accordance.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#26
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think AI will have a big influence in the future of medicine?

Yes in diagnostics but for research social innovations will be far more impactful.

More researchers and less doctors sounds like a good plan to me!

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#27
post #9

That was such a frustrating article. I kept reading anecdote after anecdote hoping to find out why the American economy needs fewer lawyers than it used to. They never explained it. Is it a software automation thing?

A lot of what's been going on at the higher end of the legal services industry is greater cost control by clients. Expensive, elite law firms had a long run in which they were able to justify heavy pyramid-like staffing of matters based on a pure billable hour model. Those days are basically over (though major litigation work has probably changed the least in this respect). That change has had some effects on the amount of hiring done by the elite firms and also has had some effect on salary structure. Pressure at the more elite end of the profession has ripple effects downward to the less elite end.

One paragraph in the article gets at what's been happening: "With big-firm jobs drying up, however, many of these graduates began competing for lower-paying spots at midsize firms, which also downsized, and certain government jobs they wouldn’t have sought in an earlier era."

I don't quite think of it as the American economy actually needing fewer lawyers than it used to. Rather, for a period of maybe a couple of decades (I think beginning with the 1980s business boom, so roughly 1985-2005) the biggest law firms enjoyed unusual success with the business model I refer to above. I think we're seeing a kind of correction where the legal profession is starting to look more like it was before the 1980s.

In some ways I think there may be more interesting opportunities for lawyers now. I see a lot of lawyers with a few years' experience establishing solo or boutique-firm practices in specialized areas that I don't think would have been as viable a couple of decades ago. Someone commented that you should only go to law school if you go to 'Harvard or Yale', but I am not sure that is what I'd take from recent developments. However, if your goal is to get a job in a big elite firm after graduating from law school, opportunities for those who didn't go to one of the top national schools (not limited to Harvard and Yale of course) are no doubt more reduced than 10 or 20 years ago.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#28
Blame the schools if you want, but I went to law school in the US and I blame the students. Once upon a time the typical law student had a useful undergrad degree. The JD was something valuable over and above the undergrad. But today's typical law student has spent the last four or five years carefully honing their undergrad to maximize GPA. Law school was always the goal and so everything else, everything useful, was skipped.

(Hint: Good law schools don't care about GPA. Do well on the LSAT and all is forgiven.)

Want to get a job? Law is all about selling knowledge. You have to show that you actually know something beyond the bar. Sit down and become an expert on something. Publish a few papers. Get your name out. That's what worked for me. Becoming a recognized expert in a very narrow law+technology field opened doors that were firmly shut to bare-bones law grads.

And.. learn to speak properly. Too many law schools are letting grads slide through with poor grammar. It might sound trivial but is really important when you are claiming to actually know something.

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#29

It seems that the story is a that a once upwards spiral is now spiraling downwards, and people and institutions must adjust. At one point in time, law was lucrative, and there were not enough lawyers. Schools responded by growing in size and in tuition. Students could justify the loans because there was a high chance that the "investment" would pay off. Fast forward a few decades and law as an industry is contracting…

It's tempting to counter by citing the "lucrative" special case: The top 5-10% of T14 law schools who receive entry-level associate salaries of $160K/year base + bonus. However, pricing power appears limited, creating a ceiling on wage increases. To this point, Vault100 firms have recently trickled out pay increases to $180K/year for incoming associates. Clients have laughed and said, "Good for your employees, but yo…

lucrative is also a relative term, since they are often working 2000 billable hours a year (which, depending on type of work/attorney, may be 60% to 90% of actual hours worked per year)

In biglaw, i have friends who easily work 2500-3000 hours a year to make their billable hours requirement. So these salaries are not exact as great as one would think anyway

Re: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

#30
Its hard to feel sorry for people graduating now. The lack lawyer jobs has been known for 5+ years, well before these students enrolled.

I wonder if there are any stats on the wages of law professors? Seems they would trend down? Do recent grads teach first year law classes?

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