Buffer Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#141

Post by DrScump » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

hopsoft wrote: post #71

compiler-guy wrote: post #36

This may be a little cynical but: "With our culture of bringing our whole selves to work and seeing team as family, with shared values we live by,..." In the American business world, you are an employee until you aren't. Confusing being an employee with being "family" is a mistake, both for the company and the employee. When times get bad, companies do what it takes to survive, including throwing employees overboard.…

> Don't confuse your job with your family. Reminds me of this terrific article from David Brady. https://heartmindcode.com/2013/08/16/loyalty-and-layoffs/

But as it turns out, that was two weeks of severance plus the bonus he had already earned implemented as four weeks of extra severance.

Ridiculous, indeed.

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#142

Post by juliand » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #17

__abc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do this? I don't understand ... am I just being too old school / narrow minded about this?

It's part of their ethos, be totally transparent on how much everyone gets paid. You can't negotiate or ask for a different salary, there's a calculation. They've got blog posts about it. https://open.buffer.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buffer-...

Not only salaries but also expenses and income, among other things.

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#143

Post by AndrewKemendo » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

compiler-guy wrote: post #36

This may be a little cynical but: "With our culture of bringing our whole selves to work and seeing team as family, with shared values we live by,..." In the American business world, you are an employee until you aren't. Confusing being an employee with being "family" is a mistake, both for the company and the employee. When times get bad, companies do what it takes to survive, including throwing employees overboard.…

So how do you account for companies like ours when, during hard times the CEO and CTO took no pay for two months so that they could continue paying employees?

Or by offering employees the same class of stock as the founders with the same voting rights etc...?

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#144

Post by mangeletti » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:13 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #56

ndiscussion wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does seem astronomical. $4,000 per employee if they have ~100 employees like they say. Anyone think their salaries are absurdly high for some locations and positions? They've got Adnan working as an "Advanced Backend/Frontend Developer" in Sri Lanka, making only $65,104. This actually makes sense to me because Sri Lanka's cost of living is pretty low. But they've got an Advanced "Happiness Hero" which I presume…

$4,000 would barely cover business-class airfare between SF Berlin for one employee. Not to mention accommodations, event space, meals and entertainment.

My wife and I will be flying to Vienna next month. It's $1,300/ea including the return flight from Copenhagen (price was the same when we priced Munich when we were planning the trip, in case you're wondering about the fare differences between Austria and Germany).

I would never pay 307% of that price for an extra 3 inches of leg room and a free plate of salt and BHT.

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#145

Post by jsprogrammer » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:13 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #70

dsacco wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire Buffer for being so transparent with their salaries, but I don't think I would ever decide to work for a company that mandated it. In my (admittedly limited) experience, mandating salary transparency tends to increase the salaries of low performers and reduce the salaries of high performers. It usually eliminates the potential for negotiating raises and poses difficult questions about paying some employees m…

The $155k salary might be due to the transparency, but could it also be due to a simple inability to pay developers $300k+? That's well over double the CEO's salary. I think it's clear they simply don't have the revenue and cash reserves to pay developers that kind of money. I suspect you'll find this to be true at a lot of smaller startups that rely on actually making money instead of fundraising.

The latest model I have seen showed founders making about one-third of top-level employees.

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#146

Post by BenoitEssiambre » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:14 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #109

I'm curious as to why they had 94 employees. That seems like an insanely high number for a company that does something pretty basic (not dumping on the product, I like it and have used it in the past). What are all of those people doing?

As part of a company of less than 30 in a rural region, I get that feeling a lot. I'm sure I'm wrong but what do 57000 google employees do!? Am I really hitting an immense mechanical turk when I use google? Yet they can't spare a single person to spend a few weeks to convert the flash off of google finance?

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#147

Post by vox_mollis » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:14 PM UTC

rdoherty wrote: post #125

vox_mollis wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$155k is already pretty obscene, let alone double. Around here, $50k entry and $90k 10y+ senior for developers is fairly standard.

Salaries in the San Francisco Bay Area are very high compared to the rest of the world due to high housing costs and extreme demand for engineers. $155k is average for 5-10 years of experience at a non-startup. You can certainly go much higher or lower depending on the company, your experience and your negotiation skills.

I'm comparing to Southern California; I doubt the Bay Area has 65% higher cost of living.

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#148

Post by cyberpanther » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:15 PM UTC

jc4p wrote: post #44

compiler-guy wrote: post #36

This may be a little cynical but: "With our culture of bringing our whole selves to work and seeing team as family, with shared values we live by,..." In the American business world, you are an employee until you aren't. Confusing being an employee with being "family" is a mistake, both for the company and the employee. When times get bad, companies do what it takes to survive, including throwing employees overboard.…

This is so 100% on point. I think the Netflix NYT article from yesterday had a more realistic tone regarding the "family" aspect: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/19/magazine/can-netflix-survi... > The key concept is summed up in the 23rd slide. “We’re a team, not a family,” it reads. “Netflix leaders hire, develop and cut smartly, so we have stars in every position.” Your last sentence here is really important. If tha…

I agree the whole family thing is ridiculous. However, the performance focus of Netflix is probably too far on the other end and ridiculous too. People are not machines and performance will not always remain high. And also measurements of performance of people are often silly and useless. Performance will fluctuate and change with time. So a level a loyalty in the face of bad performance is still very advantageous even for businesses.

Some happy medium between family and performance oriented needs to be found.

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#149

Post by baby » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:15 PM UTC

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #91

compiler-guy wrote: post #36

This may be a little cynical but: "With our culture of bringing our whole selves to work and seeing team as family, with shared values we live by,..." In the American business world, you are an employee until you aren't. Confusing being an employee with being "family" is a mistake, both for the company and the employee. When times get bad, companies do what it takes to survive, including throwing employees overboard.…

I think it would have been a better decision to lay off 3-4 more people and let the remaining employees keep their perks and annual salary increase. 3% doesn't keep up with inflation. Maybe make that 4-5 people and create an incentive fund for those who kick some ass and help the company fight its way back from its mistakes.

That might have been the plan to profit from that announcement to get rid of the perks. In the long run, if your company keeps growing in size, the perks might hurt.

Re: Buffer Layoffs

#150

Post by elif » Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:15 PM UTC

jpna66dd wrote: post #88

hammock wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$4,000 would barely cover business-class airfare between SF Berlin for one employee. Not to mention accommodations, event space, meals and entertainment.

Are you saying it is customary to fly people business class in the Valley, rather than coach? Especially for a team retreat?

I have no experience with SF, but when talking about trans-atlantic flights, business class is less of a luxury than normal. If you are tall, overweight, etc. sitting in a small seat for 10 hours can cause all kinds of joint, spine, and circulatory issues.