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PHP Sucks

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Re: PHP Sucks

#181

Post by dpcx »

supbpeerr wrote: post #101
staticelf wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to like Laravel, but lately it feels so enterprisy. There is a lot of boilerplate in Laravel today and it was changing too fast for me to keep up with it.

Used to love Laravel, until I learned the hard way it is utterly impossible to debug when shit do hit the fan. Some related discussion here: https://laracasts.com/index.php/discuss/channels/general-dis...

I'd love to hear an example of "utterly impossible to debug." I've debugged many a Laravel application, during production outages and otherwise.

Re: PHP Sucks

#182

Post by kreeves »

vesak wrote: post #156
kreeves wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've mostly tried to fight the anti-PHP movement because I WANT new developers to come on board and create great things. I want new packages to pop-up as soon as some new tool/api/widget becomes available. I've felt for quite some time that most of the anti-PHP sentiment is an effort of other developers to justify the language they've selected to focus on. "Yeah, I'm doing Javascript and Node.js and yeah it's got it'…

>I've felt for quite some time that most of the anti-PHP sentiment is an effort of other developers to justify the language they've selected to focus on. Would you be surprised if I told you that pro-PHP sentiment looks exactly like that as well?

I could see that, to a degree. But I agree with this article that most (if not all) of the "bad" of PHP has been completely papered over through best practices, documentation, fantastic tooling, or removal from the language. So the pro-PHP movement is more of a "guys, we're doing the same thing as you, why can't we all just get along?"

When was the last time we saw a "PHP is Great!" article make it to the front page of HN? Most of the time, PHP developers are on their heels because it seems others are constantly on the offense. I've not figured out what value this constant aggression provides to these developers making the arguments. My only conclusion is that they're just trying to make themselves seem more important. To that note, the pro-PHP camp becomes more of a "non-anti-PHP." :)

Re: PHP Sucks

#183

Post by tszming »

Sadly, most of the complaints to PHP as a language also apply to JavaScript (even worse IMO), but seems like people are more forgiving to the JavaScript/ Node.js community nowadays.

Re: PHP Sucks

#184

Post by Gnarl »

I come from a Java background and right now I'm working with some PHP. As a tool for websites, it is as such, OK. It feels a bit messy and "ADHD" at the core, but for non-critical stuff its acceptable. With "non-critical" I mean: systems that won't kill anyone if they fail. See, one of my early projects was designing and building control systems for a huge pharmaceuticals factory. Errors, in either logic or data, could literally end up killing someone. Testing became 2nd nature. Since that experience, I've evaluated programming languages by how robust their error-handling mechanisms are and how much rigour is enforced at compile-time. In that arena, I think Java is the most mature. In critical systems, checked exceptions -are- your friend. One glaring problem with PHP is its freak error-handling. PHP can get the job done, but don't trust your life to it.

Re: PHP Sucks

#185

Post by sleepychu »

>This is frustrating, but the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second best time is today.

What a great way to look at this. Author has some really interesting insights into why the PHP stigma exists and the problems that it creates for a (good) PHP developer.

Re: PHP Sucks

#186

Post by at-fates-hands »

Its so funny that people are so polarized either for or against PHP. Give me a language that doesn't have pitfalls and stuff that doesn't make sense and I'll show you an Amish NASCAR driver.

The one thing I never understood about developers is how your programming languages are a total pissing match. If it gets the job done, who gives a fuck if it has a few quirks here and there? Can you create something cool? Can it be properly secured? Ok, great, let's focus on building something instead of whether we're using wood or concrete.

Re: PHP Sucks

#187

Post by zeemonkee3 »

SadWebDeveloper wrote: post #123

While RoR, Python, NodeJS et al don't solve the most annoying issue for every developer: Deployment. Then they don't solve anything. And don't start talking about docker... that's a patch/hack to a serious problem, if i need an entire "jail manager" just to run your app then deployment is not as easy as you kins think it is.

Typically deployment is a "solve-once" problem, even if you don't use docker. You set up chef, puppet, ansible or fabric to handle deployment, installs, database migrations and so on, and tweak as needed.

Of course that may not be the case if you have some kind of commodity service you have to install in lots of different environments, such as Wordpress.

Re: PHP Sucks

#188

Post by trebor »

vesak wrote: post #157
trebor wrote: post #85

I started freelancing in my area doing Ruby on Rails, and found it far harder to maintain a project. I also found it harder to acquire clients in my area for new RoR development. More work was available locally with PHP. Clients were more willing to pay. I've done a ton of things in WordPress that shouldn't have been, "to save money". And I've done greenfield development with CodeIgniter, Laravel (v3 and v5), and a c…

>I'm very tired of hearing that PHP sucks. PHP is a good language And I'm quite tired of hearing this silly, totally meritless defense in every single thread that discusses PHP. Can't we just agree that it's not a very good language, but people are still doing cool stuff and lots of money with it? So many pointless fights could be averted like this.

I'll agree that what makes a good language is subjective, and that most all languages have their problems. There is a certain threshold where "good enough" is what matters.

Personally, I'd rather everyone just stop the good/bad language debates entirely.

Re: PHP Sucks

#189

Post by ams6110 »

segmondy wrote: post #130
trebor wrote: post #85

I started freelancing in my area doing Ruby on Rails, and found it far harder to maintain a project. I also found it harder to acquire clients in my area for new RoR development. More work was available locally with PHP. Clients were more willing to pay. I've done a ton of things in WordPress that shouldn't have been, "to save money". And I've done greenfield development with CodeIgniter, Laravel (v3 and v5), and a c…

Give us a break, as a language PHP is a terrible language, and yes I do develop and get paid because of PHP, and I do so for the same exact reason you listed. It pays the bills and does so handsomely too. I have 20 yrs of programming experience in various languages than I care to count, as much as 20! So I do know my languages. From an academic perspective, PHP blows! But from a practical standpoint, it's a tool. It…

Is it any worse than Javascript, if we're honest?

Re: PHP Sucks

#190

Post by jacques_chester »

swalsh wrote: post #57
emodendroket wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like more a company/environment issue than an issue with either language.

The thing is different languages lend themselves to different processes. Let's say you have the exact same bug in a web app, maybe you need to modify the where clause in the data layer of the app (or something small like that). In the C# version, you'll have to compile it and then push it. Maybe recycle the pool depending on factors in the architecture. In PHP, you just modify the file and throw it out there. Because…

> In PHP, you just modify the file and throw it out there.

We've since learned that this is problematic.

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