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The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

bbc.com

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Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#61

Post by roywiggins »

Angostura wrote: post #5
barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

> The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? It absolutely is evolution, what it isn't is 'speciation'. For speciation to occur you would have to have enough reproductive isolation and enough time to allow for sufficient change - let's say in the range of thousands/millions of years, rather than a decade o…

Speciation can occur more or less immediately if two species produce a successful hybrid. It's much more common in plants, but it happens in animals too. The idea is, you have two species that occasionally produce viable offspring, which are themselves reproductively isolated from their own parent species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#62

Post by barking »

DonHopkins wrote: post #59
barking wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think that my motives were?

You're more qualified to answer that question than I am, so why are you asking me, instead of telling me your own answer? What I asked you was why you were questioning somebody else motives, right after complaining that somebody was questioning your own motives? Is it OK to question people's motives, or not? Are you "entitled to ask questions without having our motives questioned" but nobody else is?

Like a lot of things I suppose I would say that it depends.

I think that it is OK to question if someone is being really charitable or helpful to you when they suggest that they are being so, in the context of what is otherwise a put-down.

On the other hand if someone asks a question about a scientific theory and has his or her motives for asking it scrutinised simply because the question implies doubt, then I don't think that's OK.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#63

Post by hayksaakian »

0xfeba wrote: post #40
barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

> The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? Yes. Evolution is just change in phenotypes over time. Speciation is a whole other ballgame, and there's no definitive answer as to what delineates species from one another. Some different species of fish will interbreed when forced together. That is: Species ar…

I thought it was pretty clearly defined: they product offspring which can reproduce and produce viable offspring among themselves but not with the original population

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#64

Post by splawn »

barking wrote: post #55
splawn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering we are 200 years in and have proceeded to continually make discoveries in Biology to the point of engineering technologies that drastically extend our life spans... All without finding anything contrary to natural selection. I would say evidence as far as this topic is concerned has already won out.

I don't think that even the creationists find natural selection controversial.

you're right.. I should have typed "evolution via natural selection".

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#65

Post by gtremper »

hayksaakian wrote: post #63
0xfeba wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? Yes. Evolution is just change in phenotypes over time. Speciation is a whole other ballgame, and there's no definitive answer as to what delineates species from one another. Some different species of fish will interbreed when forced together. That is: Species ar…

I thought it was pretty clearly defined: they product offspring which can reproduce and produce viable offspring among themselves but not with the original population

Ring species complicate that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

A can mate with B, B can mate with C, but A can't mate with C.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#66

Post by quadrangle »

barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

Actually, the world is full of high-resolution continua in species, it's just not always present. Divergence occurs due to isolation or some other factor.

Horses and Zebras are different species but can interbreed. Lions and Tigers can interbreed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)

So the expected continuum you seek is totally there in tons of cases. It's just that there are cases where divergence gets too stark and intermediates die out.

When humans choose (for conceptual and communications' sake) to identify two very similar groups as different species versus different breeds, then we call mixes "hybrids" like this. When we think it's just a little too similar and we call them "breeds" of the same species, then we don't call mixes "hybrids" as often. This is just problems with the simiplisticness of language.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#67

Post by fapjacks »

mikekchar wrote: post #7
barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

When you have a continuum, species don't diverge. They interbreed. So the whole will just carry on. If a mutation occurs that stops interbreeding, then that line is likely to die out because of competition with the main line. However, imagine rabbits on an island. There are zillions of them everywhere and there is a wide variety of mutations. Mostly it doesn't matter because most of them can interbreed, and the ones…

Right! It's about populations, not individuals.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#69

Post by Natsu »

knodi123 wrote: post #37
tim333 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mucking about with Google Trends the winner seems to be 'mosquito' for most searched.

There's a difference between famous and infamous. Mosquitos are definitely the most infamous insect..

I hate the entire order of diptera (flies, mosquitoes, gnats), personally.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#70

Post by splawn »

skepticarse wrote: post #68

If I recall the moths were glued to trees for photos. http://hoaxes.org/photo_database/image/the_peppered_moth This whole thing was BS, or at least a huge part of it.

You mean the picture was staged... which is a huge difference from saying the "whole thing" or even "a huge part of it". Do you also look at paper models of the solar system and go "Those aren't real planets... must be a bunch of BS"? It seems to me like you either didn't read the article or didn't understand it.
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