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The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

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Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#11

Post by barking »

danieltillett wrote: post #4
barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

The most charitable thing I can think to say is you would find studying evolutionary biology very enlighting.

I don't think that being either helpful or charitable were motivations behind your comment.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#12

Post by tremon »

barking wrote: post #10
mikekchar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a continuum, species don't diverge. They interbreed. So the whole will just carry on. If a mutation occurs that stops interbreeding, then that line is likely to die out because of competition with the main line. However, imagine rabbits on an island. There are zillions of them everywhere and there is a wide variety of mutations. Mostly it doesn't matter because most of them can interbreed, and the ones…

That makes sense thanks. I'm not sure how a mutation that prevents breeding would be disseminated from the animal in which it occurred?

I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but probably this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

The point is that as long as two minimally diverse populations remain in close contact and can interbreed, most of their mutations will cross the population boundary and we will probably classify them as one species, even though both populations may look nothing like their ancestors of 10,000 years earlier.

Mutations that prevent interbreeding usually don't occur in a single generation, they are the result of a long period of no interbreeding (and therefore divergent mutations).

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#13

Post by lanna »

Angostura wrote: post #5
barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

> The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? It absolutely is evolution, what it isn't is 'speciation'. For speciation to occur you would have to have enough reproductive isolation and enough time to allow for sufficient change - let's say in the range of thousands/millions of years, rather than a decade o…

> There are many clusters of species where interbreeding is possible to some extent

Do not forget that the offspring itself also has to be fertile. Most hybrids aren't.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#14

Post by loudmax »

mikekchar wrote: post #7
barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

When you have a continuum, species don't diverge. They interbreed. So the whole will just carry on. If a mutation occurs that stops interbreeding, then that line is likely to die out because of competition with the main line. However, imagine rabbits on an island. There are zillions of them everywhere and there is a wide variety of mutations. Mostly it doesn't matter because most of them can interbreed, and the ones…

An even more impressive demonstration is the existence of ring species: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

Here, you have a population whose geographic range is in the shape of a ring. Say, around the base of a mountain range. Members of the species may display some regional variation, but they can interbreed with their nearby kin. At some point on the ring though, there is a break. Here, regional variations will have accumulated to the point where the members are not able to interbreed and you have what appears to be two distinct, if similar, species. Only by following the line of population the long way around the ring do you find that the populations are still connected and actually the same species.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#15

Post by danieltillett »

dforrestwilson wrote: post #8
barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

I'm scratching my head as to why you were down-voted. You may be wrong but you're not being rude or purposefully trolling.

I think the reason for the down votes is the post is kind of trollish. The points raised by the OP are the sort of spurious arguments that are brought up by the "intelligent design" promotors. Of course the OP could have just been innocently influenced by them, but it is always hard to know.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#16

Post by teekert »

barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

I think it is a good question. But where does the definition of species go when A can produce offspring with B, B can produce offspring with C but A cannot produce offspring with C? Would you be willing to label B as an intermediate form?

Moreover, recognizing that the theory of evolution does not really speak of "intermediate forms" but of common ancestors, would you be willing to label an extinct (but well preserved in the fossil record, including its DNA) species that is the common ancestor of two species as an intermediate form?

In other words, what would be the evidence for evolution to convince you of the reality of the theory?

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#17

Post by danieltillett »

barking wrote: post #11
danieltillett wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most charitable thing I can think to say is you would find studying evolutionary biology very enlighting.

I don't think that being either helpful or charitable were motivations behind your comment.

Yes they were. I though of writing a snarky response, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt that your post was the result of not knowing anything about evolution and not trolling. If you really are interested in knowing the answers to your questions then you need to study evolutionary biology - it really is a very interesting topic :)

Edit. If you want to know more then any of Richard Dawkins biology books are really good. The Blind Watchmaker would be my suggestion of where to start.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#18

Post by eru »

danieltillett wrote: post #17
barking wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that being either helpful or charitable were motivations behind your comment.

Yes they were. I though of writing a snarky response, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt that your post was the result of not knowing anything about evolution and not trolling. If you really are interested in knowing the answers to your questions then you need to study evolutionary biology - it really is a very interesting topic :) Edit. If you want to know more then any of Richard Dawkins biology books are real…

Even Wikipedia would be a good introduction here.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#19

Post by danieltillett »

eru wrote: post #18
danieltillett wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they were. I though of writing a snarky response, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt that your post was the result of not knowing anything about evolution and not trolling. If you really are interested in knowing the answers to your questions then you need to study evolutionary biology - it really is a very interesting topic :) Edit. If you want to know more then any of Richard Dawkins biology books are real…

Even Wikipedia would be a good introduction here.

Yes, but it can be really hard trying to make sense out of all the information without having the assumed knowledge. I would really recommend starting with a good book that assumes very little.

Re: The mutation that famously turned moths black during Industrial Revolution

#20

Post by mikeash »

barking wrote: post #3

The black moths could still mate with the peppered variety so they're still the same species just different 'breeds', perhaps, so is this really evolution? I am a layman but one criticism of the theory of evolution that seems sensible to me is the absence of intermediate forms. For example types of ape that could mate with say gorillas and chimpanzees. All the species seem very well defined when you'd expect a contin…

Continuous sorts of things exist:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

Living things evolve in groups which is why it's more common to have clearer lines between them, but it's not always like that.

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