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PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

phpmyadmin.net

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Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#41
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's doesn't have the featureset as PHPMyAdmin but it has a huge advantage in that it's a single PHP file you can upload, make the necessary changes, and then delete The days of painfully slow FTP servers are long gone where "it's one file" would count as advantage. This leaves a massively worse UX and featureset. (We are using adminer for postgresql databases, because there's no better alternative, and it makes me…

Didn't postgresql community just annouced pgadmin4 lately and it seems to come with a modern webclient https://www.pgadmin.org/

Do any of these web-based DB tools come with autocomplete? I'd say that's the feature I value most when using desktop DB tools.

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#42
post #33
post #31

Does anyone know how much (approximately) this audit could have costed?

Given that the assessment occupied two weeks with two consultants, between $25,000 - $35,000. I don't have intimate knowledge of NCC Group's pricing structure because I don't work there. But I have friends who do, and similarly situated consultancies that I've worked for are in the $10,000/week range for a one-off assessment with non-senior staff. This is also somewhat close to what I charge through my own smaller co…

$10,000/week range seems low for a week long audit, but depends on time charged.

Most audits I've worked on, while a week long, have a 2 week pre-audit familiarization period for the audit team, and a 1 week long post-audit report-writing period. This means a 1 week audit is an actual week of investigation, and for $10,000 this sounds low.

Via the article, it seems like a leading client / lead of future potential client, so discount works on many levels.

And from TFA: Conservancy and the phpMyAdmin project are proud of the results and thank Mozilla for funding and initiating the audit.

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#43
post #40
post #35

Stupid question, how does a security audit work? Do the consultants just read through the code? Do they try to find security bug like they do on bug bounty programs?

Good question. It can be all or none of the above. Here's what happens at a high level: Once a company decides it needs a security assessment performed on an application, it engages with a consulting firm. Consulting firms generally offer a variety of services, from web and mobile application penetration tests, to cryptanalysis (implementation and design), to reverse engineering and binary penetration testing, with s…

I can't upvote this comment enough. That's an excellent answer to the question.

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#44
post #42
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the assessment occupied two weeks with two consultants, between $25,000 - $35,000. I don't have intimate knowledge of NCC Group's pricing structure because I don't work there. But I have friends who do, and similarly situated consultancies that I've worked for are in the $10,000/week range for a one-off assessment with non-senior staff. This is also somewhat close to what I charge through my own smaller co…

$10,000/week range seems low for a week long audit, but depends on time charged. Most audits I've worked on, while a week long, have a 2 week pre-audit familiarization period for the audit team, and a 1 week long post-audit report-writing period. This means a 1 week audit is an actual week of investigation, and for $10,000 this sounds low. Via the article, it seems like a leading client / lead of future potential cli…

Interesting. Do you mind if I ask what sort of audits you were working on?

I can understand the 2 week pre-audit familiarization period. How would you price this out instead? I was operating under the assumption that the pre-audit familiarization was priced into the first week as threat modeling and discovery. This would also lend credence to the report admitting that they did not have time to investigate as thoroughly as they would have liked.

I did forget to include the post-audit report-writing period, it's been a while since that was a thing for me. I've never billed for that in my own practice because I disagree with the idea of billing for five days of work that essentially boils down to "fill in findings and application details into a long-form, templated PDF." I've also never seen a consultant really need five days to complete one of those :). I'm sure folks like Tom will come in shortly to beat me over the head for not charging for this part of the assessment.

I don't understand what you mean by this though:

> And from TFA: Conservancy and the phpMyAdmin project are proud of the results and thank Mozilla for funding and initiating the audit.

I do agree it's likely that there is a discount here for future or publicly recognizable work.

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#45
post #33
post #31

Does anyone know how much (approximately) this audit could have costed?

Given that the assessment occupied two weeks with two consultants, between $25,000 - $35,000. I don't have intimate knowledge of NCC Group's pricing structure because I don't work there. But I have friends who do, and similarly situated consultancies that I've worked for are in the $10,000/week range for a one-off assessment with non-senior staff. This is also somewhat close to what I charge through my own smaller co…

You can usually add a pretty significant premium to an audit if it includes a public statement, like this one apparently did. But since Mozilla funded it as part of a block grant, the rate might be significantly lower.

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#46
post #35

Stupid question, how does a security audit work? Do the consultants just read through the code? Do they try to find security bug like they do on bug bounty programs?

Yes. The way it works is that two smart hackers go into the office each day and spend eight hours trying to think of as many creative ways of tapping on the target application as possible. Nothing is off-limits except what is agreed up front, but you're obviously expected not to interfere with production operations. The client is generally expected to set up a testing environment substantially similar to production, but usually consultants just have to muddle through with whatever the clients give, which may not (and usually isn't) populated with production data. As long as consultants are given the ability to enter in data themselves, i.e. admin accounts, this is fine, because data entry is their job. Hacking is basically large-scale data entry, and it's as boring as it sounds: very tedious, interspersed with excitement when you see an XSS popup window or figure out a clever way to get a reverse shell.

If after two weeks of this you found no medium-or-higher security vulnerabilities, you were generally considered to not be doing a very good job.

The secret of the industry is that at the end of this process, you are deemed secure. That's the point of the security audit. But if it's not a repeating process, it doesn't work. It may work for that particular version of the application, and it may substantially improve the security in that old vulnerabilities are found and fixed. Let me abandon this train of thought and put it another way:

This post is a press release saying that phpMyAdmin is secure. But that's not how this works. High-severity vulnerabilities are often found near the end of an audit. This is because the consultants have had time to become intimately familiar with the application. But the late stages of an audit are exactly when the consultant's time is mostly spent writing reports for the existing findings, and not doing pentesting. This means that two weeks is often just long enough to start finding serious vulns, since week one can be devoted to pentesting and week two is mostly reporting from Tuesday onward. But that "mostly reporting" process gets the consultant thinking about the application as they're doing the writeups, which -- you guessed it -- leads to realizing that there's something clever they could try. And when they try that clever thing, sometimes it yields a high-severity vuln. It's the opposite of a mechanical, thoughtless process.

That means your results will vary depending on who, specifically, is doing the auditing. If you run your application through the consulting process twice -- same version, same staging data, same everything -- it's likely that you'll get wildly different results, because the pentesters are different people.

It has to be an on-going process in order to be effective. And it can be highly effective. It just costs so much that only the most massive companies can afford this.

That's not to say this audit wasn't effective. It's possible that whoever did the audit found substantially everything. But it was interesting to discover how often this was not the case, in a "How'd they miss this last time?" sort of way.

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#47
post #45
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the assessment occupied two weeks with two consultants, between $25,000 - $35,000. I don't have intimate knowledge of NCC Group's pricing structure because I don't work there. But I have friends who do, and similarly situated consultancies that I've worked for are in the $10,000/week range for a one-off assessment with non-senior staff. This is also somewhat close to what I charge through my own smaller co…

You can usually add a pretty significant premium to an audit if it includes a public statement, like this one apparently did. But since Mozilla funded it as part of a block grant, the rate might be significantly lower.

Yeah, good call, I'm a little torn on whether to discount or raise the estimated rate based on the public report. In the end I figured it might be lower due to the possibility of further work down the pipeline.

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#48
post #40
post #35

Stupid question, how does a security audit work? Do the consultants just read through the code? Do they try to find security bug like they do on bug bounty programs?

Good question. It can be all or none of the above. Here's what happens at a high level: Once a company decides it needs a security assessment performed on an application, it engages with a consulting firm. Consulting firms generally offer a variety of services, from web and mobile application penetration tests, to cryptanalysis (implementation and design), to reverse engineering and binary penetration testing, with s…

Thanks for your response, great to see how it works from a business side. I'm going to use this opportunity and ask you another question.

What happens if after 2-3 weeks of consulting you don't find any "high impact" issue? Are your customer angry, happy?

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#49
post #6

And in the PDF, the auditors complain that they didn't have enough time to even fully analyze the impact of the vulnerabilities found. I wouldn't read too much into it.

If fixing the bug is less work then determining exploitability, fixing it and moving on is just economical. Digging in further would only have distracted from looking for other vulnerabilities.

Re: PhpMyAdmin Project Successfully Completes Security Audit

#50
post #39
post #35

Stupid question, how does a security audit work? Do the consultants just read through the code? Do they try to find security bug like they do on bug bounty programs?

I'm not an expert in this field, but we recently did a security audit. The auditors get access to the code in order to evaluate it for vulnerabilities. In our ruby application, they also check gems that we are using (through open source tools albeit). They also did an in-app audit where they tried to break the application however they might see that. Having access to the code helps with this. When you get audited by…

> When you get audited by potential customer, it usually involves not having code access and trying to penetrate the app without that access.

Is this in reference to on-prem / enterprise software and is this typical? I haven't heard of customers doing this but it certainly makes sense (might as well invest thousands to test before spending magnitudes more on the product itself only to find it having a huge security hole). Then again I'm not sure I've worked with potential customers who have access to do something like that.

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