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Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

kernelmag.dailydot.com

11–20 of 51 posts

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#11
post #5

i worked in anti-fraud for a large online gaming house for about six years from 2003 to 2009 so my information is not current. At that time, there were no bots (whether in the wild or in academic, eg, University of Alberta) that could competitively play no-limit, likewise for tournaments (which account for a large portion of the total hands played in online poker Sites). Anyone know if this has changed?

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/05/man-is-greater-than-ma... Person beats no-limit bot recently http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/06/suspected-bots-on-poke... Omaha bots winning $1.5 million in the wild. I assume this (Omaha bot) is quite advanced past what you were dealing with?

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#12
post #5

i worked in anti-fraud for a large online gaming house for about six years from 2003 to 2009 so my information is not current. At that time, there were no bots (whether in the wild or in academic, eg, University of Alberta) that could competitively play no-limit, likewise for tournaments (which account for a large portion of the total hands played in online poker Sites). Anyone know if this has changed?

strong limit bots (including 6max) have been around for a while, and are one of the reasons for the demise of online limit games.

the technology exists for strong NL bots as well: http://www.pokersnowie.com/. there is a consensus among many expert player that pokersnowie is very strong. you can search twoplustwo or deucescracked for lots of disucssion.

i am not sure if bots as strong as pokersnowie have infiltrated online games, or to what extent they have. my guess would be that they have.

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#13
post #9
post #5

i worked in anti-fraud for a large online gaming house for about six years from 2003 to 2009 so my information is not current. At that time, there were no bots (whether in the wild or in academic, eg, University of Alberta) that could competitively play no-limit, likewise for tournaments (which account for a large portion of the total hands played in online poker Sites). Anyone know if this has changed?

As someone who works in anti-fraud, would you be able to detect someone who was playing manually, but had a bot set up to tell them what to do (and then they would manually input the move)? Is that even illegal or against the rules?

Of course it's against the rules. People have done this in casinos with black jack. Definitely not something the casino is going to allow, because they lose the money if the boot plays better than humans.

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#14
post #9
post #5

i worked in anti-fraud for a large online gaming house for about six years from 2003 to 2009 so my information is not current. At that time, there were no bots (whether in the wild or in academic, eg, University of Alberta) that could competitively play no-limit, likewise for tournaments (which account for a large portion of the total hands played in online poker Sites). Anyone know if this has changed?

As someone who works in anti-fraud, would you be able to detect someone who was playing manually, but had a bot set up to tell them what to do (and then they would manually input the move)? Is that even illegal or against the rules?

You should be able to tell. It's fairly straight forward outlier detection; if someone is doing 20% better than anyone you've seen before you monitor them. If they continue to do better constantly you manually look, then you can either make a choice manually or have a system auto remove them. They may even remove you just because you are costing them too much money (depending how the game is setup).

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#15
post #5

i worked in anti-fraud for a large online gaming house for about six years from 2003 to 2009 so my information is not current. At that time, there were no bots (whether in the wild or in academic, eg, University of Alberta) that could competitively play no-limit, likewise for tournaments (which account for a large portion of the total hands played in online poker Sites). Anyone know if this has changed?

Over the last year there was a situation where a player was using and sharing Nash "charts" for no limit on Pokerstars. Originally PS had allowed the software, but decided to change its police since it was more than just a preflop starting hand chart.

I believe the charts were used in headsup SNGs, which makes sense since it eliminates a lot of variables in solving for game theory optimal plays, and a lot of the play is shortstacked. And if a human can look at a chart and click a button, then so can a piece of software.

More here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/3rd-part...

I've also talked to a few players who suspect there exist bots in headsup cash games that avoid playing regular winning players.

So I don't know if there are any 100% true general no limit bots, but there's definitely some automated play going on.

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#16
Former professional poker player here, no limit holdem cash games, mid stakes. NLHE cash games are considered the hardest to solve given the depth of the decision trees. Other formats like sit and gos, spin and gos, and tournaments can be modeled and solved in a more simplistic way.

A group of us (cash game pros) discovered a group of players on the Ongame network around 2010. We combined our databases and found a few dozen players that all shared an unconventional style and had outstanding winrates.

They made very annoying, aggressive plays that were difficult to counter, not taught anywhere in professional videos, forums or training sites, and we're winning at a world class winrate.

All the regular pros talk and knew each other, and no-one knew who these players were.

Combined they took millions in winnings out of the network. We presented our collaborative research and investigation to Ongame and they didn't do a thing about it.

In more recent years players on Pokerstars have received refunds when their security teams have deemed them to have lost to bots.

Pokersnowie is the most advanced commercially available bot and they even have an API now.

I quit playing in 2011 and would strongly advise people staying away from online poker. It's a scummy world, the games are tougher than ever, the sites are shadier in their operation, run higher margins, and with the current progress in the AI/ML domains you're on a hiding to nowhere.

I was skeptical but saw this evidence first hand and lost thousands personally, and this was 5 years ago. Anyone playing online in 2016 that doesn't believe they're up against super sophisticated bots are deluded.

Happy to share more if people are interested.

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#17
post #16

Former professional poker player here, no limit holdem cash games, mid stakes. NLHE cash games are considered the hardest to solve given the depth of the decision trees. Other formats like sit and gos, spin and gos, and tournaments can be modeled and solved in a more simplistic way. A group of us (cash game pros) discovered a group of players on the Ongame network around 2010. We combined our databases and found a fe…

What made you think that these groups of players were associated with each other? What made you think that they were bots, beyond just winning often?

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#18
post #16

Former professional poker player here, no limit holdem cash games, mid stakes. NLHE cash games are considered the hardest to solve given the depth of the decision trees. Other formats like sit and gos, spin and gos, and tournaments can be modeled and solved in a more simplistic way. A group of us (cash game pros) discovered a group of players on the Ongame network around 2010. We combined our databases and found a fe…

What made you think that these groups of players were associated with each other? What made you think that they were bots, beyond just winning often?

He said it: their strategies were very similar and never seen before, nor taught anywhere.

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What made you think that these groups of players were associated with each other? What made you think that they were bots, beyond just winning often?

He said it: their strategies were very similar and never seen before, nor taught anywhere.

So, some people got together, or one person was playing many accounts, and cleaned the amateurs out. Similar, novel strategies does not imply a bot net.

Re: Big data and poker-playing bots are blurring the line between man and machine

#20
post #5

i worked in anti-fraud for a large online gaming house for about six years from 2003 to 2009 so my information is not current. At that time, there were no bots (whether in the wild or in academic, eg, University of Alberta) that could competitively play no-limit, likewise for tournaments (which account for a large portion of the total hands played in online poker Sites). Anyone know if this has changed?

I would be very surprised if there weren't any bots that "short stacked" in that time span. Not sophisticated bots coming up with amazing strategies but rather bots designed for automating a mundane task.

[I played semi professionally towards the end of that timespan, NLH cash]

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