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Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

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Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#81
I moved to Victoria, BC from the states. There is zero chance anything in Canada can compete with SF for quite some time until a few things change.

I actually get asked this question quite a bit being here. I have many long and drawn out thoughts having lived in SF and now Victoria, but I'll try to condense them.

First, if any place in Canada will start a tech boom, it isn't Toronto. It's not Vancouver. It's Victoria. Why? Victoria is close to SF, where the VC money is. The life and cost of living in Victoria is dramatically better than either Toronto (high cost, terrible weather) or Vancouver (high cost). And tech is already one of the bigger industries in Victoria. Victoria has the added bonus of already having a vibrant start-up scene, albeit mostly local and under 20 people and on the very young side.

Second, even with the above, Victoria (which I consider the most likely, so that means even less for other cities) is highly unlikely to get any major traction for a few reasons.

1. Canada is very conservative with money. Canadian banks, angels and VCs are all pretty conservative. They are not like SF VCs and do not want to make 10 bets to get one win. Canadian startups typically have to bootstrap well beyond what any in the states would ever have to do. Sometimes this is ok, but for the most part it shows that Canadian startup scene doesn't quite understand risk and reward well. And, the majority of VCs are still out east in Canada, though they are even worse in this regard because they simply don't get the modern internet. In Toronto the tech industry was telephony and devices and it seems that most of the VCs are so old school they still think this way. Canadian VCs need to modernize their thinking quickly.

2. SF VCs are not forward thinkers. At all. SF VCs continually say to Canadian companies "you need to move to SF", which of course in 2016 is complete and utter bullshit. Most VCs are actually not inventive or progressive. Instead, they are followers of a few stronger VCs. And by a few, I mean a tiny minority. Being followers, they have playbooks and patterns they follow. It's basically scripts. SF based VCs want to invest in SF based companies. This is a 1990s model that doesn't matter in 2016 and, much like Canadian VCs, SF VCs need to update their thinking and look beyond this. They might not feel they have to because there are so many people willing to live and work in SF, but SF based VCs, the progressive ones, look for good ideas and good teams. Location is not important. SF based VCs should adapt to the brave new world and expand from a single geo.

3. Salaries. Canadian salaries in tech are low. So low that many that live close to the states and are young would simply move to the states. Now, this sometimes works out, sometimes it doesn't. It works in places like Toronto and Vancouver when the cost of living is awful (worse than SF when you factor in housing with salary, IMO). It doesn't work when it's places like Victoria (at the moment). This could actually change if salaries go up, ironically, though it's unlikely for quite some time.

4. Cargo Culture. Most techies in Victoria view SF as the mecca of tech. I mean, it is, but not the way they idolize it. Smart and stupid have no geo lock and many in Victoria/Canada have a bit of a complex when SF comes up. Canadians need to stop looking at SF for inspiration and instead build the local community up, make it a vibrant scene of their own and own it all. Forget what SF is doing. Don't chase trends and build things of value.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#82
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Add in a car, ($0 in Toronto, $1000 in The bay w/ parking, insurance, gas & the vehicle) My observation is that's great to not have a car in SF, I prefer not to. But it's impossible not to have a car in Toronto. Why is it $0 in Toronto?

Impossible? I lived in Toronto for ten years without a car and never had trouble getting around. $0 is a bit misleading, as you will need $130/mo for a metropass.

I'm shoes & a bike... Which is how I got away with claiming $0 on that, but yeah, I'd go so far as to concede a metro-pass could be required for some.

Personally, it's a 20 minute walk to work at Yonge & bloor ... So car isn't really critical here for me.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#83

Who is going to move to Toronto to join the tech scene? If given the choice who is going to choose Toronto over Bay Area or Seattle? Without it having a massive draw it won't even register compared to Bay Area or even Seattle.

If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto. Every day of the week. Toronto's great. Sure, it's like the planet Hoth for a third of the year. But in every other way it's a more liveable city. The public transport in the core of the city exists and works, rather than being a cobbled-together mishmash of uncoordinated systems of which 2 out of 3 seem to be broken at any time. The re…

"If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto"

The thing is that for most people this wouldn't be the candidates. Toronto is probably a third tier city for startups, meaning there are more candidates and factors to consider.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#84

Who is going to move to Toronto to join the tech scene? If given the choice who is going to choose Toronto over Bay Area or Seattle? Without it having a massive draw it won't even register compared to Bay Area or even Seattle.

Visa's a way more friendly and straight forward for Canada than the US. We'd love to move to the US but life's too short for the visa process, my wife and I are both PhDs, electrical engineers (4 years automotive and 5 start up experience) and I genuinely can't see a sensible route in to the US, Canada looks pretty straight forward though.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regrettable Some say it's ok. There are some startups, but most of the environment seems to be "corporate oriented", and .NET is very popular

future? any new policies taking shape to attract more companies? I read somewhere that due to French clause in Quebec companies stay away from the city. Is it true?

There is some aspect of the French law that keeps companies far, yes, though there's a limit (the law doesn't apply to small companies in some aspects)

https://www.thestar.com/business/small_business/leadership/2...

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#86
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the pay here in Toronto is much lower, even when you account for cost of living vs. San Fran. One consideration that offsets that is medical insurance. If your health care is not fully covered by your employer. I ran some numbers once and the "rent difference" was roughly $3k (typical 1 - 2 bedroom apartment at $4k vs. The roughly $1k I spend) and the platinum medical looking like roughly $500/mo Add in a car,…

> Add in a car, ($0 in Toronto, $1000 in The bay w/ parking, insurance, gas & the vehicle) My observation is that's great to not have a car in SF, I prefer not to. But it's impossible not to have a car in Toronto. Why is it $0 in Toronto?

Great to hear you can go without a car in SF I'm a 20 minute walk to work in Toronto with a large grocery store across the street from home. Basically everything can be done on foot. Add in a bike and a nice transit system and no-car is pretty easy here.

Are you in SF? Does $4k for a 1 bed+den seem to be in the ballpark?

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#87
post #80

Not if Toronto keeps hemorrhaging talent. I graduated from the University of Toronto last year and can only name 2 of my classmates who are actually working in Toronto now. The rest are in SF, Seattle, and NYC - including many people who have family in Toronto, like me. All of my friends who were seriously working on a startup have moved it to the Bay Area. Many of us would love to move back to Toronto 'eventually',…

do you get a green card easier as a canadian than people from europe for example? I'm from germany and know many people who would like to work in the states, but it's really a big problem to get the green card. It takes companies much effort and money to get you in the states for more than 3 months.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#88
post #77
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After being in the Bay Area for the past 7 years, I'm moving back to Toronto next week. Can't wait.

Congrats! What convinced you to go back?

I loved living in Toronto, it's a great city. Like any city, it has its problems, but it feels like a healthy city. There's good transit, it's reasonably affordable[0], there is great diversity, there is tech but there is also everything else.

Living around SF, the problems don't feel like they're being treated, but rather covered up with more and more money. It feels dysfunctional on too many levels (many of these problems are not at the municipal level). At this point, I can't afford to live anywhere near the SF core (and I'm not sure I'd want to if I could) while maintaining the lifestyle that is important to me. Living on the outskirts has taken a big toll on my happiness over the years, and it's a good time for us to move for a multitude of other reasons of varying importance (political, cultural, financial, social, etc).

I hope Toronto becomes an even more important player in tech, but it's in a great position even as it is.

[0] People constantly debate that Toronto is overpriced because prices keep going up, but it's still very cheap compared to most other cities in the world of similar calibre.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#89
Odd they didn't mention Amazon Toronto or IBM. Amazon has 300+ SDEs here (myself included), room for 800 developers in the new office that just opened. Not sure how big IBM is, but I've heard it's fairly big operation here.

It's not that Amazon is a startup itself (what, 100k+ employees worldwide doesn't count?) but that when you have a big company like that you often see people leave to make startups. Young guys spend a couple years being mentored and becoming great developers, then leave to go pursue their passions.

I have two former managers that are both very senior people in local Toronto startups, plus a number of friends who've left to hit up the start-up scene both as founders and early hires.

Re: Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups

#90
I worked in the SF Bay Area for ~4 years. After wanting to re-visit life in Canada for personal reasons, I ended up in Toronto last year. With no expectations, but some sense of understanding that Toronto is Canada's best tech hub, I made a move and worked at an early stage tech consultancy. A lot of smart and talented people from local schools (e.g. Waterloo/UofT). But like most have mentioned, you still see a huge migration of that talent going to US-based tech hubs as the opportunities are more favourable (career-wise and financially).

After a year (and luckily meeting my significant other) we've decided to explore opportunities in the Bay Area again, and will be moving back this summer.

There really isn't anything quite like the SF scene at the moment for tech startups.

This article is great in championing what the city can aspire to, but there is a lot of room left to become a contender.

Can't wait to see what Toronto's tech scene will evolve to in the next 5-10 years. Hopefully in time for when I want to settle down again in Canada.

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