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Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

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Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#71
post #3

I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science. It started as a genuine attempt to model how the nucleus was held together and then continued because it's a good area to do maths and write papers rather than because it models reality. One thing I don't get, which may be down to my own stupidity - take maybe the simplest interaction in physics - you have two electrons in spa…

>I've got a theory that string theory is more of a sociological phenomena than real science.

Yes. I have a friend with a PhD in physics, and he says that a generation of string theory people basically just shouted everyone else down in a rather obnoxious way. Other critics (e.g. Lee Smolin) have said similar things, albeit slightly more politely.

At some point it stopped being science and became more about careers, reputations, funding, and paper mills. Which, given the way that academia works at the moment, became self-sustaining.

Some interesting math has fallen out of string theory, but it should never have been allowed to hold back other approaches to quantum gravity to the extent that it has.

Considering the amount of time and paper involved, there's a huge wall of maybe-perhaps-if but very little solid physics to show for the effort.

Incidentally, that blog is a real find - some of the clearest explanations of hard concepts I've seen anywhere.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#72

The author says that he "became more convinced [string theorists] are merely building a mathematical toy universe." The explanation for his conclusion was that they kept revising string theory in order to fit observations. I know little of string theory, so I am probably misreading his meaning, but isn't that how all science works? Create a model, then revise it when you get more data.

The point is that a theory is only scientific it if it's falsifiable. That is, it makes a prediction, you go into the lab and do an experiment, and if the experiment comes out differently than the prediction, you know the theory was wrong.

The author and I got the impression that string "theory" (let's call it "string hypothesis" instead?) has so many degrees of freedom that it can predict basically anything you throw at it, even things we now know aren't physical, so its predictive value is zero.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#73
post #67
post #30

This is probably a naive question: can we input a bunch of particle interactions into a deep learning system and train it to predict the probability of future interactions? It would be like a "black box version" of physics. If we can predict, then we can find a more elegant mathematical notation and a more intuitive physical interpretation. Machine learning can observe and learn patterns that are more complex than hu…

I wonder, if given a big set of time1, time2 pairs (with relatively short dt) of the positions of the planets in our solar system, as seen in the night sky on earth, a machine learning system would be able to come up with good way to predict where the planets are going, given their positions. Surely a machine learning system would need to be able to solve this 18th century physics problem, before we throw modern phys…

Pretty sure what you will end up with in the best case is a numerical integrator of the solar system as represented by a neural net. I also expect to have pretty crappy stability, but its an interesting question what sort of time step method it would approximate.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#74
post #30

This is probably a naive question: can we input a bunch of particle interactions into a deep learning system and train it to predict the probability of future interactions? It would be like a "black box version" of physics. If we can predict, then we can find a more elegant mathematical notation and a more intuitive physical interpretation. Machine learning can observe and learn patterns that are more complex than hu…

> Machine learning can observe and learn patterns that are more complex than humans can grasp. That is a common misconception. ML cannot do anything beyond our modeling ability because it is designed with it. Deep learning is simply a method to approximate a function with a nonlinear formula. Something that cannot be easily approximated this way may require too much memory and power to be practical. It is fundamental…

> Deep learning is simply a method to approximate a function with a nonlinear formula.

I think that was single hidden layer neural networks. Deep learning improves behaviour of that approximated function for values that were not in training set beyond what was possible with single layer (which was totally sufficient to aproximate any function).

Deep doen't improve ability to approximate function results but it it improves ability to approximate function implementation to get better result on the data that NN was not trained for.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#75
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the universe runs on a simple program with simple rules hasn't failed us so far. All we have to do is figure out what that simple program is with our capability for abstract symbolic thinking and reasoning; machines are presently very bad at this while humans are less bad at it.

Look up automated proofs. This exists. It's largely useless, due to mathematical properties of logic. Every mathematical system has things which are true but can't be discovered from first principals.

> Every mathematical system has things which are true but can't be discovered from first principals.

This is not true, see Gödel's completeness theorem [1], which states "... that a deductive system of first-order predicate calculus is 'complete' in the sense that no additional inference rules are required to prove all the logically valid formulas." It basically means that every "true" statements are provable with a good enough deductive system.

What you possibly think about is Gödel's first incompleteness theorem [2] which is quite a different statement. It states that in "most" formal systems (that are complex enough to be able to describe natural numbers) there is always a statement A that both A and "not A" are not provable. It basically means that these statements can't be "logically valid", which means that there exist models of the formal system where A is true and models where "not A" is true.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_completeness_th... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_...

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#76

The author says that he "became more convinced [string theorists] are merely building a mathematical toy universe." The explanation for his conclusion was that they kept revising string theory in order to fit observations. I know little of string theory, so I am probably misreading his meaning, but isn't that how all science works? Create a model, then revise it when you get more data.

It's called adding epicycles : http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Adding_epicycles

What's wrong with that? Epicycles are a good testable model. They were discarded when a better one was developed.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#77

The author says that he "became more convinced [string theorists] are merely building a mathematical toy universe." The explanation for his conclusion was that they kept revising string theory in order to fit observations. I know little of string theory, so I am probably misreading his meaning, but isn't that how all science works? Create a model, then revise it when you get more data.

You misunderstand, first: it is not the case that new observations about the world forced the changes. Instead, it is mostly observations about the internal properties of string theory which has forced modifications.

After it was proposed as a self-consistent theory of quantum gravity it was realized it wasn't self-consisten because it had ghosts, which was then fixed by adding 22 dimensions. But this is a problem because that's not how many dimensions the world has so they solved it by compactification that folds all the extra dimensions tiny so they don't bother us. But then it turns out that there is no particular reason to fold just so so that we get the world we live in. And now they are trying to find a way to make it so its natural that the folding happens just so that we get the world we live in.

Secondly, and most importantly, while it is true that some models get revised whenever there is more data, those are poor models. Good models agree with all the data and don't need modification. (The best models agree with most of the data, but sometimes don't so that the scientist gets a mystery to solve!) Realistically this stage takes a while to happen, and proponents of string theory argue that they right now have a models that is going to be great one day, but right now needs a bit of tinkering. What critics say is that string theory has been in the "tinkering" stage for around 50 years now and maybe we should try other ideas a bit more.

Finally, I don't think Sabine likes being refereed to as a "he" and rather have that pronoun used to describe the father of her children rather than herself.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#78

This ties in with my thinking that there is just too much funding to do research for the sake of research. Let the private sector work on moonshots if they want but more realistically no one should be researching super far out problems. Instead the agile "just in time" approach needs to be used in academia as well as private companies. A good analogy is no one was trying to build electric cars fifty years ago but now…

That's one perspective, however, collectively, as a society we see value in funding such research. I think that's a better approach.

> But they only are because progress has been made indirectly in other fields to make it worth it now

Yeah, like the fundamental 'moonshot' research done in the 1700s, 1800s and early 1900s, which now serves as foundation for all electronics.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#79
post #54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's the beauty of ML, you don't need to worry about these details if it gives good accuracy. I get very alarmed by this. At work we have several examples of ML systems that have done good things for many years before suddenly and inexplicably blowing up and producing nonsense. Our folk explanation (as we have failed to produce anything resembling a proper one) is that the models that are captured in some cases ap…

In ML, they might say you were overfitting. Predicting is all well and good, but predicting too well can indicate the machine hasn't really learned anything. It's just spitting back nearly identical information as the original. It sounds like that is what this black box is supposed to do. All you need for a perfect black box is every possible data point...

So we have instance based learning which basically is about approximating this, and support vector machines which abstract the idea into representing the space of decisions represented by all the data points via a kernel which is a mapping function. The problem I see which deep learning seems to be "winning on" is that the space of instances that you have does not either abstract a meaningful theory of the distribution of these points (therefor predicting outside of this space) or describe things exterior to that space - but that exist, or might exist. A scientific theory is considered valid if it predicts things that have not been seen yet (and you can then test that, hence the post today about "string theory : enough"), I think IBL and SVMs can't represent the unseen, I used to work using something called inductive logic programming (I used a tool called Progol that Steven Muggleton made, it was good!) and I thought that that did produce such insights, sometimes, but it turned out that often these were actually me due to fiddling. Some play projects I did recently made me think that conv. nets were doing the same sort of things, but it was /is harder for me to catch and show this (and as I say, I ended up thinking that I'd often fooled myself with ILP, even though it was very useful).

The old skool difficulty I have with deep nets is that I used to think in terms of structural risk minimization vs empirical risk minimisation when dealing with overfitting. The idea was that if you had the right size of information store in your learned system and it was experimentally producing results that showed it was an effective predictor you could say that it was generalizing properly. Deep nets seem to me to have all the information storing capability of the domains they address and I worry....

But I am shocked, shocked, by how well they seem to work.

Re: Why not string theory? Because enough is enough

#80
post #66
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fundamental mistake to assume that these are "real" strings being talked about. String theory is about the idea that reality is best modeled as, notionally, strings - i.e. the mathematics looks a bit like them if you sort of squint and look at it really hard. But there's a really good reason strings are a compelling here: because near as we can tell, vibrational frequency is really important to particle physic…

>really good reason strings are a compelling here: because near as we can tell, vibrational frequency is really important to particle physics I can give a sort of counter argument. Fair enough the relationship between frequency and energy and also wavelength and momentum are fundamental to physics. But consider maybe the classic experiment where you demonstrate that, where you have a barrier with two slits and fire p…

> It's a fundamental mistake to assume that these are "real" strings being talked about.
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