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Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

nytimes.com

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Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#131

Post by Terr_ »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #82
_audakel wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define "fair" in fair market wage? If foreign talent = domestic talent and foreign wage = domestic wage; is there a compelling reason to hire foreign? And if being hired = increase worker happiness, than equal pay will decrease foreign worker happiness. If all people are equal than whos happiness should we optimize for?

How do you define "fair" in fair market wage? It eventually has to come down to, "I'm an American, so I'm entitled to get paid more than everybody else on the planet for doing a given job." I find that attitude pretty disgusting, but that's just me. The same people who complain endlessly about H1Bs, outsourcing, and cheap foreign labor will then cheerfully drive to Wal-Mart and buy a new DVD player for $12. It will n…

> It eventually has to come down to, "I'm an American, so I'm entitled to get paid more than everybody else on the planet for doing a given job."

Fuck no, it's about getting your "membership benefits" from a communal system that you've contributed to. Americans get paid more by Americans because those Americans pay more to Americans, and invest in the American economy and interact with American laws.

Who you ought to be disgusted with are the people who break the rules in order to enrich themselves from "arbitrage" opportunities. On a fundamental level, that's called theft, the only difference is the kinds of rules being broken.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#132

Post by CamperBob2 »

HelloMcFly wrote: post #130
CamperBob2 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define "fair" in fair market wage? It eventually has to come down to, "I'm an American, so I'm entitled to get paid more than everybody else on the planet for doing a given job." I find that attitude pretty disgusting, but that's just me. The same people who complain endlessly about H1Bs, outsourcing, and cheap foreign labor will then cheerfully drive to Wal-Mart and buy a new DVD player for $12. It will n…

> It eventually has to come down to, "I'm an American, so I'm entitled to get paid more than everybody else on the planet for doing a given job." Sure, if you don't want to think critically about the issue at all. Absolutely agree under that circumstance. But since many foreign workers are not able to job shop, they become a lower-cost source of labor that depresses wages for everyone (other foreign workers included)…

My point is that you're competing with those unwashed, underprivileged foreign workers whether they work here in the US or not. Our economy is, and should be, global in nature. If we build the wall that some posters in this thread apparently want, we'll find that instead of locking everybody else out, we've locked ourselves in.

There is simply no way to ensure that an American engineer is innately more valuable than a Chinese, Indian, Japanese, or African engineer, unless we deny ourselves the benefits of the work done by the latter. To the extent geography or national boundaries come into play, these are artificial factors that we will all ultimately be better off without.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#133

Post by HelloMcFly »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #132
HelloMcFly wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It eventually has to come down to, "I'm an American, so I'm entitled to get paid more than everybody else on the planet for doing a given job." Sure, if you don't want to think critically about the issue at all. Absolutely agree under that circumstance. But since many foreign workers are not able to job shop, they become a lower-cost source of labor that depresses wages for everyone (other foreign workers included)…

My point is that you're competing with those unwashed, underprivileged foreign workers whether they work here in the US or not. Our economy is, and should be, global in nature. If we build the wall that some posters in this thread apparently want, we'll find that instead of locking everybody else out, we've locked ourselves in. There is simply no way to ensure that an American engineer is innately more valuable than…

> There is simply no way to ensure that an American engineer is innately more valuable than a Chinese, Indian, Japanese, or African engineer

Nobody made any claim of the sort! In fact, I made the opposite: when they enter into a labor market with local considerations (cost of labor, community investments) they should be treated as an equal. Right now, they are not. And one of the primary ways they are not is by being employer-constrained. That's the main issue I take umbrage with! Bring as many over as we want, but let them exist in the labor pool.

> To the extent geography or national boundaries come into play, these are artificial factors that we will all ultimately be better off without.

These are not artificial factors for any of the players involved. May we be better off without them? Probably so, in the long-run. But they do exist today. Maybe in a computer simulation they can be treated as such, but right now those "artificial factors" have exceptionally real consequences in the world we live in. While national boundaries may be an "artificial factor", cost of living is not, nor is added cost of labor due to social commitments at the national level. Nor are dozens of other things.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#134

Post by Clubber »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #125
Clubber wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but US labor and citizens fought generations for those wages. Revolutionary War, Civil War, World Wars, company / labor riots, taxes to subsidize industry, taxes for infrastructure, taxes for education, legal systems, all that. US taxpayers paid for our economy through blood and toil. You don't think high wages just happen because companies feel generous do you?

Your post is precisely what I mean by "entitlement." 500 million not-so-red Chinese don't give a hoot about the Revolutionary War, Civil War, World Wars, company / labor riots, taxes to subsidize industry, taxes for infrastructure, taxes for education, legal systems, all that. To understand the position of workers in the rest of the world, see above.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#136

Post by freddie_mercury »

garrettgrimsley wrote: post #109
DrScump wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was never that automatic in the old days. From Ellis Island, for example, over 120,000 were sent back. "New arrivals were processed quickly. In the Registry Room, Public Health Service doctors looked to see if any of them wheezed, coughed, shuffled or limped. Children were asked their names to make sure they weren't deaf or dumb. Toddlers were taken from their mothers' arms and made to walk. As the line moved forw…

>More than 120,000 immigrants were sent back to their countries of origin That doesn't sound like a lot, given the scale of immigration. Out of how many? This sounds like a good way to flood the labor market.

From the linked page, out of 12 million. A 99% acceptance rate.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#138

Post by pmarreck »

> Two years later, his work with a local tech contracting company pays $45,000 a year less than his Eversource salary. Many of his former co-workers are also struggling, Mr. Diangelo said, but stay quiet to avoid provoking the company.

So basically, the company wasn't making enough money to support the affluent pay of its workforce so it had to take drastic measures to stay afloat.

If you are suddenly making $45,000 a year less than you were... Perhaps you were getting paid above your true market value

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#139

Post by nopzor »

brendangregg wrote: post #119
nopzor wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done h1b transfers before, as an employer. I wouldn't say it's "very easy", but it's not super hard either. I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, but shouldn't there be some cost incurred by the new company? Remember, like it or not, the h1b program is technically designed to only come into play when a company can't find suitable local talent to fill a position. In our case it was a few thousand d…

It's not supposed to be true, but take the company who is making threats to have their employees deported if they complain or leave.

Couldn't they make sure to transfer their h1b before they resigned from their old job?

(And not threaten or complain until the transfer is processed successfully?)

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#140

Post by warcher »

_audakel wrote: post #30
warcher wrote: post #19

Listen, there's no point claiming the H1 situation isn't a rampant clusterfuck. Actual skilled laborers lie in limbo while busloads of cheap, disposable foreign workers are brought over to get exploited and depress domestic wages. It's a full on disaster. If you have to have temporary worker visas, fine. But don't tie them to a company. If there's a legitimate need, and they're legitimately skilled, they'll find work…

> disposable foreign workers are brought over to get exploited "exploited" is a matter of perspective. To an onlooker who has lived their whole life in a first world country, seeing people work for $x - (less-significantlyLess) [where $x is what is "typical" for the job] can be seen as bad/wrong/sad etc... I have spent time working in very poor parts of Mexico and Manila. Crime is rampant, I feared for my life at tim…

I've had some experience with the H1B staffing mills, and yeah, I'd say exploited is pretty fair, if you compare the work they could be doing vs the work they are doing. I would imagine most of those people would call it a fair trade to be in America, but I really think it's a lose lose scenario for the country (which could be benefitting from the full measure of their productivity) and the worker (because they're wasting their precious time).
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