Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder • Hacker News Board

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#81

Post by pm90 » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:31 PM UTC

Another commenter alluded to it, but I find both the article and the discussion miss what is really going on. It seems like a lot of firms are basically outsourcing their IT workforce; something that has been going on for a long time now.

For most businesses, IT is a cost center, and if that cost can be minimized, they will do so, full stop. What the articles doesn't go into detail is whether those workers that are being trained will continue to work in the US, or whether they are in the US temporarily to understand the IT infrastructure and processes. It seems to me that the latter is the case here. Again, outsourcing has been going on for the longest time, and it really confounds me how many times the same issue will be brought up.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#82

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:33 PM UTC

_audakel wrote: post #67

HelloMcFly wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "exploited" is a matter of perspective. Yes, of course. But that doesn't change the fact that companies are systematically exploiting their life context in order to pay them below a fair market wage (in many cases), and in doing so is also exploiting the rest of the workforce to pay them less. Just because someone is happy doesn't mean they aren't being taken advantage of in a systematic, identifiable, and preventa…

How do you define "fair" in fair market wage? If foreign talent = domestic talent and foreign wage = domestic wage; is there a compelling reason to hire foreign? And if being hired = increase worker happiness, than equal pay will decrease foreign worker happiness. If all people are equal than whos happiness should we optimize for?

How do you define "fair" in fair market wage?

It eventually has to come down to, "I'm an American, so I'm entitled to get paid more than everybody else on the planet for doing a given job."

I find that attitude pretty disgusting, but that's just me. The same people who complain endlessly about H1Bs, outsourcing, and cheap foreign labor will then cheerfully drive to Wal-Mart and buy a new DVD player for $12.

It will never, ever occur to them that there are two sides to every transaction, and that Mother Nature abhors an arbitrage opportunity even more than she abhors a vacuum.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#83

Post by pm90 » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:35 PM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #80

nwhybrid wrote: post #77

As a former H1-B worker myself (please put down the pitch-forks :)), I can tell you that regular companies aren't hiring H1-Bs to replace you directly. Instead they contract swarms of us through companies like WiPro and other body shops. This, along with the inability to seek a more fitting job on your own regardless of skill level is the main problem I see. You're essentially shackled to these body shops. You can't…

Is it a common reaction to raise pitchforks at H1-B's? I mostly feel sorry for workers on visa. They don't have the flexibility I do to change jobs if they're not happy. That would be the absolute worst for me, as someone who is always looking for a better gig.

This is a common misconception. It is a very easy process to change jobs on an H1B. The difficult part is the Green Card process, which gets reset (IANAL) and currently getting a green card takes upto 10 years, if you're from India.

The problem essentially is that many of these workers either don't know that they can switch jobs, don't have the skills relevant to get another job or, in many cases, have a sort of loyalty to their present company for 'giving them an opportunity to come to the US'.

The last sentiment is a lot more common than you would imagine.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#84

Post by shoo » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:39 PM UTC

JorgeGT wrote: post #78

mschuster91 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably India or Pakistan, common sources of Dubai slave labor.

I'm guessing India because of the karma comment. What here in HN is a number on your profile, there it is a promise of a better future (but maybe in the next life).

Karma is also an explanation/justification of why your current life isn't so good - you're making amends for something bad you did in a previous life.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#85

Post by ajmurmann » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:40 PM UTC

_audakel wrote: post #67

HelloMcFly wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "exploited" is a matter of perspective. Yes, of course. But that doesn't change the fact that companies are systematically exploiting their life context in order to pay them below a fair market wage (in many cases), and in doing so is also exploiting the rest of the workforce to pay them less. Just because someone is happy doesn't mean they aren't being taken advantage of in a systematic, identifiable, and preventa…

How do you define "fair" in fair market wage? If foreign talent = domestic talent and foreign wage = domestic wage; is there a compelling reason to hire foreign? And if being hired = increase worker happiness, than equal pay will decrease foreign worker happiness. If all people are equal than whos happiness should we optimize for?

Your equations aren't telling the full story though. The salary for foreign talent isn't only lower because of potential cultural issues out education, but because ability for foreign workers to change employees is artificially limited. This artificial market inefficiency hurts both local and foreign workers and benefits corporations who exploit it.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#86

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:41 PM UTC

nwhybrid wrote: post #77

As a former H1-B worker myself (please put down the pitch-forks :)), I can tell you that regular companies aren't hiring H1-Bs to replace you directly. Instead they contract swarms of us through companies like WiPro and other body shops. This, along with the inability to seek a more fitting job on your own regardless of skill level is the main problem I see. You're essentially shackled to these body shops. You can't…

Your perspective is the one missing from this debate.

I don't have a problem with immigration -- my grandparents were all immigrants. I have a problem with this three-tier system of greencards, guest visas and systematic import of undocumented workers.

These leech companies are farming exploited quasi-immigrant labor while screwing up the labor market for everyone else.

You should be able to come to this country like my ancestors did -- pass a physical and get a green card. An Indian technology worker shouldn't be separated from his kids, a Chinese restaurant waiter shouldn't be an indentured slave, and Americans of all backgrounds shouldn't have their salaries kneecapped by thousands of workers with no rights.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#87

Post by ajmurmann » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:42 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #66

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"exploited" is a matter of perspective. No, not really. If the bosses and investors are taking the surplus value, defined as the gap between wages+capital costs and actual revenues, then the worker is exploited.

That is technically correct (the best kind of correct). Just as I exploit electricity to provide light in my house, or exploit Exxon/Mobil when I derive $5 of utility from a gallon of gas that I swindled them into selling me for $2.50 or exploit Apple when I'd be willing to pay 50% more (or more) for my Macbook than they actually charge, because I use it to make money. As applied to labor, "exploited" generally means…

The market in this case is being kept artificially inefficient to benefit corporations to the direct detriment of foreign workers and indirect detriment of local workers.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#88

Post by ropiku » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:47 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #83

dclowd9901 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a common reaction to raise pitchforks at H1-B's? I mostly feel sorry for workers on visa. They don't have the flexibility I do to change jobs if they're not happy. That would be the absolute worst for me, as someone who is always looking for a better gig.

This is a common misconception. It is a very easy process to change jobs on an H1B. The difficult part is the Green Card process, which gets reset (IANAL) and currently getting a green card takes upto 10 years, if you're from India. The problem essentially is that many of these workers either don't know that they can switch jobs, don't have the skills relevant to get another job or, in many cases, have a sort of loya…

I wouldn't say 'very easy' but 6 years after you get an H1B you are cap-exempt. So any new employer can apply for an H1B for you right away though it only gives you the years left in the original visa not another 6y.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#89

Post by enraged_camel » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:54 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #83

dclowd9901 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a common reaction to raise pitchforks at H1-B's? I mostly feel sorry for workers on visa. They don't have the flexibility I do to change jobs if they're not happy. That would be the absolute worst for me, as someone who is always looking for a better gig.

This is a common misconception. It is a very easy process to change jobs on an H1B. The difficult part is the Green Card process, which gets reset (IANAL) and currently getting a green card takes upto 10 years, if you're from India. The problem essentially is that many of these workers either don't know that they can switch jobs, don't have the skills relevant to get another job or, in many cases, have a sort of loya…

>>This is a common misconception. It is a very easy process to change jobs on an H1B.

No it isn't. Even though the process is informally called an "H-1B transfer", changing employers while on H1B actually requires filing a brand new H-1B petition with USCIS. The only difference is that this petition is not subject to the annual cap. Everything else - the crazy requirements and loops you and the sponsoring employer have to jump through - is the same.

What this means is that there is a big risk associated with the process. Since it's a new petition, it can be rejected. You are literally at the mercy of the USCIS officer processing your application, and they can deny it for any reason.

Of course, this also assumes that you're able to find an employer who is willing to sponsor your visa. Considering the legal expenses (thousands of dollars per worker), the hassle and the risk, most companies don't. And if your skills are in a niche field, good luck finding any that do.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#90

Post by nostrademons » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 11:55 PM UTC

Dwolb wrote: post #25

colordrops wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These Carly Fiorina-style arguments that no one has a special right to a job are ignoring a lot of context. In a world with even handed regulation and no borders, that could make sense. But that is not the world we live in. The current situation is not that trade is completely deregulated and labor is tied up in red tape. What is really happening is that there is a complex surface area of varying degrees of regulatio…

Said in another way, capital is fungible but labor is not. This means capital can flow readily to the lowest cost suppliers and workers but workers cannot flow readily to higher paying employers. This leads to a mismatch where, temporarily, employers can capture higher-skilled workers at lower costs. Another comment, how are anti-disparagement clauses not a violation of first amendment rights?

> Another comment, how are anti-disparagement clauses not a violation of first amendment rights?

First amendment applies to Congress (and after the 14th amendment, the state governments), not to any private citizen or organization. You're free to make private agreements that sign away any rights you have, except (after the 13th amendment) your freedom.