Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder • Hacker News Board

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#31

Post by udkl » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 9:59 PM UTC

triplesec wrote: post #23

Worth noting the headlines of the 'related coverage': Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers With Immigrants JAN 25, 2016; Large Companies Game H-1B Visa Program, Costing the U.S. Jobs NOV 10, 2015; Toys ‘R’ Us Brings Temporary Foreign Workers to U.S. to Move Jobs Overseas SEP 29, 2015; Pink Slips at Disney. But First, Training Foreign Replacements. JUN 3, 2015

The way I read it, the anti-H1B movement and awareness is gaining steam. It would be interesting the stance Hillary/Trump takes next year after being sworn in.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#32

Post by DrScump » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 9:59 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #29

lazaroclapp wrote: post #9

This causes some pretty strong mixed feelings for me. On the one hand, foreign workers are already disadvantaged compared with domestic workers and H1-B caps are absurdly low. I keep failing to see why we are all supposed to open world markets to the flow of every sort of capital and goods except labor, or why someone deserves a job for being born American, rather than Indian (Note that I feel the same way when Ameri…

Accepting money in exchange for not disparaging someone is not a violation of free speech rights.

But traditional free speech rights are founded on the principle that truth is an affirmative defense against (for example) libel or slander cases.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#33

Post by johndubchak » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 10:00 PM UTC

udkl wrote: post #22

johndubchak wrote: post #20

At this point, with both Corporate abuses from American corporations and the H1-B holding companies along with the frequency with which we've seen the more expensive American work replaced with a much cheaper "guest" worker, I believe we need to ask ourselves, do we not have enough surplus American workers that are unemployed such that the H1-B program might not be necessary for a year or two until we've managed to g…

From a cursory glance with my limited knowledge, that sounds like a very naive approach and one which will not pass a vote. The problem is that of lower skilled (not low skilled) but cheaper labour from the body shop consultancies mixed with higher skilled ones in the same H1B pool. As someone somewhere suggested, instead of a lottery, an auction of the seats would in a sense lead to lesser pay difference between the…

Perhaps it is naive however, I did not suggest stopping it altogether, the idea is to merely restore some balance back into a system that seems to have gotten out of balance.

The auction is a good idea, but I fear it will somehow be twisted and abused as well.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#34

Post by robotresearcher » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 10:02 PM UTC

johndubchak wrote: post #20

At this point, with both Corporate abuses from American corporations and the H1-B holding companies along with the frequency with which we've seen the more expensive American work replaced with a much cheaper "guest" worker, I believe we need to ask ourselves, do we not have enough surplus American workers that are unemployed such that the H1-B program might not be necessary for a year or two until we've managed to g…

H1-B visas are for skilled workers. The unemployment rate for skilled American workers is very, very low.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#35

Post by johndubchak » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 10:04 PM UTC

revelation wrote: post #18

x0x0 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abbott contracted with Wipro, who appears to be performing the work locally, though Wipro claims only 20% h1b labor. Abbott tried to reduce the role of foreigners in the layoffs. Only about 20 percent of the workers brought in by Wipro would be foreigners on H-1B visas, Mr. Stoffel said, while the rest would be American workers.

I thought the idea was 0% H-1B labor? You can't replace an American job with H-1B? The requirements seem very stringent in writing but apparently utterly useless and ineffective in practice, or clearly both executives for Abott and Wipro would be facing criminal prosecution. You should not be able to circumvent the restrictions by a single layer of contract work.

>> You can't replace an American job with H-1B?

The goal of the system is to use the guest worker program to augment your current workers with talent that you are unable to find and staff here in the US. The requirement is not at 40 - 60% of the cost you pay your US employees, but in skills that you cannot find or fill with US domestic workers.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#36

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 10:04 PM UTC

arjie wrote: post #28

WalterBright wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actual skilled laborers lie in limbo ... good help is always hard to find Sounds contradictory.

Trivially non-contradictory. Consider a hypothetical situation in which all the good skilled workers are on visa statuses that do not permit work and have missed the H-1B lottery. Both things are then true.

That would require that there are no local good skilled workers, so the argument they are being replaced doesn't hold.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#37

Post by lazaroclapp » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 10:05 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #29

lazaroclapp wrote: post #9

This causes some pretty strong mixed feelings for me. On the one hand, foreign workers are already disadvantaged compared with domestic workers and H1-B caps are absurdly low. I keep failing to see why we are all supposed to open world markets to the flow of every sort of capital and goods except labor, or why someone deserves a job for being born American, rather than Indian (Note that I feel the same way when Ameri…

Accepting money in exchange for not disparaging someone is not a violation of free speech rights.

Not narrowly defined (as in, it is not the government preventing you from expressing a political opinion). But it does have the whiff of a coerced surrendering of one's rights. Suppose you could sign a completely unbreakable "indentured servitude" contract with another person, whereby by a specific payment now, you are required to work for them exclusively for the next 10 years in whichever capacity they so chose (as long as the job is legal), without further pay and without the option to resign (even by returning the money or declaring bankruptcy). The above would probably not be slavery in the legal/historical sense, but I think no country that disallows slavery should allow such contract either.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#38

Post by dominotw » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 10:07 PM UTC

_audakel wrote: post #30

warcher wrote: post #19

Listen, there's no point claiming the H1 situation isn't a rampant clusterfuck. Actual skilled laborers lie in limbo while busloads of cheap, disposable foreign workers are brought over to get exploited and depress domestic wages. It's a full on disaster. If you have to have temporary worker visas, fine. But don't tie them to a company. If there's a legitimate need, and they're legitimately skilled, they'll find work…

> disposable foreign workers are brought over to get exploited "exploited" is a matter of perspective. To an onlooker who has lived their whole life in a first world country, seeing people work for $x - (less-significantlyLess) [where $x is what is "typical" for the job] can be seen as bad/wrong/sad etc... I have spent time working in very poor parts of Mexico and Manila. Crime is rampant, I feared for my life at tim…

I am an immigrant living in the united states. I still can't believe my luck that I get to live in this paradise on earth called USA. I also feel guilty that got this incredible opportunity while much of my extended family and friends rot in third world hell holes waiting for their lives to be over quickly so they can be put out of their misery.

One of my uncle works as day laborer in dubai. He works 14 hr days of hard labor in extreme heat and lives in a some shanty where he has to share a bathroom( hole in the ground) with 14-20 other people. His passport got confiscated by his "owners" as soon as he landed there and was put under some sort of draconian "contract" where they get to work him to death, work place deaths are extremely common and no one cares if its an immigrant. In native's eyes they are basically slaves with no rights. You can see videos online where the 'owners' beat the shit out of them for real or imagined slights. I went to a restaurant once in Dubai with my uncle, all the immigrants were separated out into a different room with no air conditioning and that is where immigrants were supposed to sit you could never eat with locals. I've also heard of many second-hand stories where women who go there to be be domestic help get sexually and physically abused for years. And shocking part is that he does all this voluntarily for the most part even though he never gets to see his family and kids and gets to have sex only when he goes back every 4-5 yrs. We had houses on the our street referred to as 'dubai houses' meaning houses build with money made in dubai, you can feel the eerie sadness when you look at a house. I can go on forever but I think you get the idea.

Seeing yourself as an individual and as a human being is privilege inaccessible to most people in countries like mine. Even Our philosophical frameworks and belief systems are designed to explain away and make sense of unbearable misery of life with concepts like karma and preordination.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#39

Post by yazaddaruvala » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 10:07 PM UTC

newjersey wrote: post #14

frostmatthew wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this would be solved (or at least greatly improved) if H-1Bs were awarded via auction rather than lottery.

I'd like to add that full rights for guest workers could possibly solve the problem outright. Let the worker walk out and find a better job the day they land in the airport or cross the border or change status to worker. Make any "bond" illegal and declare the employer may not seek restitution for the worker walking out in search of greener pastures.

While this is definitely helpful, it solves a different problem.

You're assuming that H1Bs are only awarded to highly skilled workers. Therefore, if they are being "underpaid" they could get other jobs that would pay them more.

However, this is not currently true. Currently the problem is that certain companies are exploiting the H1B program to get workers who are "high skilled" but only meeting the minimum requirements[1]. As a result, these "minimum requirement" H1B holders are not being "underpaid" they are appropriately paid for their skill level, while still:

1. Hindering higher skilled workers from attaining H1Bs.

2. Undercutting the current US workers salaries.

Meanwhile, giving H1Bs via auction(ideally, based on the employees yearly compensation), ensure that the US only takes the highest skilled workers[2]. Encouraging an import of the world's best. Larger salaries for H1B holders on average, therefore more taxes collected.

[1] Because the minimum requirements are actually quite vague and to anyone not in the tech field, its really hard to asses the technical abilities of a potential employee.

[2] Utilizing salary as a proxy for skill, based on capitalistic company's abilities to accurately compensate skill.

Re: Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder

#40

Post by dietrichepp » Sat, Jun 11, 2016, 10:09 PM UTC

Dwolb wrote: post #25

colordrops wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These Carly Fiorina-style arguments that no one has a special right to a job are ignoring a lot of context. In a world with even handed regulation and no borders, that could make sense. But that is not the world we live in. The current situation is not that trade is completely deregulated and labor is tied up in red tape. What is really happening is that there is a complex surface area of varying degrees of regulatio…

Said in another way, capital is fungible but labor is not. This means capital can flow readily to the lowest cost suppliers and workers but workers cannot flow readily to higher paying employers. This leads to a mismatch where, temporarily, employers can capture higher-skilled workers at lower costs. Another comment, how are anti-disparagement clauses not a violation of first amendment rights?

> Another comment, how are anti-disparagement clauses not a violation of first amendment rights?

This is a common misunderstanding of the first amendment. It's a short amendment, shorter than your comment, so you might as well just read the amendment.