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There Have Probably Been Aliens

nytimes.com

51–60 of 163 posts

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#52

There have been aliens -- and they don't care about us. To assume that a collection of beings which have obtained the ability to travel amongst the stars would focus their attention on a single species on a single planet is fundamentally selfish. What resources does our earth contain that are not (more easily) obtainable elsewhere? If Drake's equation "holds", then what novelty do _we_ provide?

There are many reasons alien races would interact with primitives. Morality - they might be utilitarian and desire to relieve the suffering of other sentient beings. Or force their weird alien morals onto them. Competition - we might not be a threat now, but given a sufficiently long time, we could evolve into one. If they really don't care about us, it would cost them very little to exterminate us early.

I see these mentioned a lot, and sci-fi is big on the latter. The one I rarely see come up is "entertainment."

If we were traveling amongst the stars today, with our values and morality as they currently are, and happened upon a world of what we'd consider to be primitive life, we'd probably scoop some up and put them in a zoo, or broadcast them on TV. We'd want to study them, learn what makes them tick, maybe try to see if communication was possible, but in the end, we'd get entertainment value from them.

Even if we left them be and studied from a distance, the human race would be fascinated. New life! A new place! We like new things. The news would cover these creatures ("Are they a threat to humanity? News at 11."), they'd be woven into stories and shows and movies in one form or another. If we could safely bring them back, people would want to see them in person.

We'd get a lot of entertainment value out of these new creatures. We're a curious race who manages to get bored of spectacular things quickly, which is a large reason we continue to innovate and push forward.

There's no way to know for sure what would motive another intelligent race to advance to the point where they'd reach for the stars, but if any of them shared a degree of curiosity, I doubt they'd pass us up if they found us. We'd be something new for them.

Maybe we'd end up in their stories, their drawings, their videos, or even their zoos. Maybe they'd be interested in how we smell, or the way we dress and decorate ourselves, or the things that we watch on TV. Our languages, our fights, our culture. Or maybe just the way we go about our business, missing some big cosmological truth that's so obvious to them, as if we're adorable little children.

Maybe we'd provide just enough entertainment value to be worth a quick trip. Or a long stay.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#53
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given enough time anything can form out of random fluctuations if it has >0 probability no matter how small.

"Enough time" can easily be longer than the age of the universe. A million monkeys typing on keyboards will eventually write shakespeare. But it will be longer than the universe before they even type a single sentence of it correctly.

It sure can be, but as long as it is less than the expected lifetime of the universe it will still happen. A million monkeys - given that Hamlet contains such long sentences as "He." it will take far less then a minute for them to type a single sentence correctly.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#54
post #29

By pure probability, if we're the first intelligent species here on earth (that is able to build radio communicators) out of what, ~4 billion species that ever existed, what are the odds of us being the first in the entire universe? My logic is that intelligence (as defined above) is clearly rare here on earth where life is prolific, hence by no means a certain development of evolution. I wouldn't be surprised if we'…

I'm not sure you can draw the conclusion that since there is one intelligent (as defined above) species, out of many on earth, that intelligence is unlikely to develop.

The main issue I see is that there were other species that were close to as intelligent us, but we out competed them and they went extinct.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a sort of "first one wins" effect where the first species to reach a certain level of intelligence quickly (compared to the time it takes to evolve that level of intelligence) comes to dominate the planet wide eco-system on a level far beyond every other species, thus preventing the development of other intelligent species.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#55
post #34
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony here is that Gawker's relevant clickbait is actually far superior: http://io9.gizmodo.com/11-of-the-weirdest-solutions-to-the-f...

I read a good short story recently about a weird Great Filter: http://www.begoodenough.com/the-great-filter/

The first movie that I think plays around with the idea of a Great Filter (not quite; but close) is The Forbidden Planet, a 1950s scifi. The basic idea without spoiling it is that enhancing their own intelligence also made powerful their lizard brain of sorts. I assume freudian psychoanalysis was big in the 50s so they called it the ID in the film.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#56
post #9

"In other words, given what we now know about the number and orbital positions of the galaxy’s planets, the degree of pessimism required to doubt the existence, at some point in time, of an advanced extraterrestrial civilization borders on the irrational." This is terribly silly. It reminds me of the Onion talks: "Step 1: Devise an idea to create a car that runs on compost. Step 2: Create the car. We’ve already compl…

I think what will really help us to get at a better estimate is to answer the question whether there exists life in our solar system that evolved independently of that on Earth. If we should find traces of bacteria on Mars or another planet, that would immediately take the corresponding probability factor in the Drake equation to a number close to 1 (i.e. most solar systems with planets in the habitable zone produce…

    I think what will really help us to get at a better estimate
    is to answer the question whether there exists life in our
    solar system that evolved independently of that on Earth.
That's definitely the big question. But you left out the elephant in the room: is there life right here on Earth that's evolved independently? Abiogenesis doesn't simply halt after it's achieved its "goal". Perhaps we take the common-origin hypothesis for granted (that the "tree of life" has one root, and is in fact a tree), but it's actually nontrivial, strong evidence about the rate of abiogenesis, right under our noses. If it's true.

There's no hard reason why another, orthogonal family of life couldn't coexist with DNA/RNA life. We have 10^7 extant species of DNA/RNA life; that's an existence proof that hostile, competing "types" of life can coexist. Suppose we found terrestrial "XNA life" with a biochemistry totally unrelated to anything else, with no possible common origin or lateral gene transfer. Then we would know life on Earth developed independently N >= 2 times, instead of N >= 1. That would change a lot; we could update P(life | Earth-like planet) from the subjective probability range [10^-Graham's number, 1) to something more like [10^-4, 1).

What's really surprising is that this is completely untested! We genuinely don't know if there's "alien" life on Earth, because we don't know how to look for it. There's no black-box tool to approach unknown biochemistry:

    Some have postulated the existence of a 'shadow biosphere'
    on Earth, teeming with life that has gone undiscovered
    because scientists simply don't know where to look. It could
    contain life that relies on a fundamentally different
    biochemistry, using different forms of amino acids or even
    entirely novel ways of storing, replicating and executing
    inherited information that do not rely on DNA or
    proteins. [...] The trick is deciding what to look for and
    how to detect it. The usual way that researchers search for
    new organisms — by sequencing DNA or RNA — will not pick up
    life that does not depend on them.
http://www.nature.com/news/life-changing-experiments-the-bio...

    ...We could even be oblivious to unfamiliar forms of life
    right under our noses...
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/02/shadow-biosphere-migh...

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#57
post #42

I enjoy these quasi statistical arguments. Can anyone remind me what is the probability that God exists, or that we live in a computer simulation?

Did god invent humans or was it the other way round?

See Isaac Asimov's the Last Question for a recursive god human relationship

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#58
In estimating a probability for the occurrence of life in the universe, the authors essentially claim to know the probability of their own existence.

For me, that's a red flag. I can't know the probability of a phenomenon which my existence depends on just by observing my existence alone, because I can't observe all of the cases where the phenomenon does not occur and I do not exist.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#59
It's true that so far every step of the way we have found environmental factors that are generally in favor of life. However, there are still many factors we don't know anything about. Somewhere between the possibility of one of these remaining factors being extremely unfavorable to life and us just being in a very isolated location, there should be an explanation for the Fermi paradox we're actually experiencing.

Sensationalist title aside, the article actually plays it extremely safe, by asserting a very high probability of extraterrestrial civilizations having been existed somewhere in the past.

But even so, there are potential problems where that might conflict with observation. I'm not generally a fan of these "alien civilizations must construct huge machines and must have a huge energy output" assertions, however, all it would take is one of the previous civilizations to have built something we can recognize. Sadly, nothing has been found, neither artefacts such as probes, nor radiological evidence in the sky.

Now, there are many possible reasons for why we haven't found anything yet, first and foremost being that the galaxy is vast in both time and space. But if I forced myself to be especially pessimistic, I would say that the probability of abiogenesis might be way smaller than even our bleakest estimates.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#60
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . The events that took place on earth could still be one in a billion, or they could be one in an incomprehensibly high number. I disagree with this. It seems that, from what happened to other planets on the solar system, that nothing happened on Earth too much out of the ordinary. Mars had a similar story (except for the whole Moon coming out of a giant collision), and had water. But maybe it was too small to keep…

It's not about how probable are these conditions but given these conditions how probable is that life will appear.

It seems that the probability of life appearing (in some form), given the ideal conditions, is higher than that of obtainiing the ideal conditions.
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