Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
171–180 of 260 posts
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the US, the signature means little; it must be ratified after the fact by a 2/3 vote of the Senate to come into effect. So - we have a bit of time to influence our lawmakers. It must be a huge, SOPA-level effort, but it can be done. And it must be done.
Trade agreements are basically never treated as treaties, but are, after negotiated, submitted to Congress for passage as regular laws -- as TPP has been -- so it will take a simple majority in each house of Congress, followed by the signature of the President (or, 2/3 of each house to override a veto if one occurs.)
The vote was 60-38.
Around that time, Clinton did refer to the secretly-written TPP as the "gold standard" in trade negotiations, but possibly due to pressure from Sanders and the rest of the party, has backed down, saying it was flawed and she doesn't support it.
Trump has also gone after the TPP numerous times, basically shoving a long-standing Republican establishment plank in their faces.
So weirdly both candidates oppose the TPP. I'm wondering if this is going to be saved for after the election, then jammed through.
More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_track_(trade) http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/24/barack-obama-...
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you referring to the part about corporations being able to sue nations if they take any measures that they can claim hurts their business? [0] I assume that the "ISDS" that Warren refers to in the linked article (which was written before the draft went public), is chapter 28, "Dispute Settlement," in the draft at readthetpp.com. [1] This is already happening, at least with tobacco companies. "Last Week Tonight" d…
> if they take any measures that they can claim hurts their business? This is just flat-out false. The second link you provided clearly lays out the criteria for resolution of a conflict via the ISDS: > the dispute settlement provisions of this Chapter shall apply...wherever a Party considers that an actualor proposed measure of another Party is or would be inconsistent with the obligations of this Agreement or that…
And I admit that I still have trouble seeing the plaintiffs in these cases as any kind of victims. The first of your links states that companies can use the mere existence of an ISDS mechanism to produce a real "chilling effect" on countries not even part of the dispute. Is that "fair" to the people of those countries?
But okay, there are two sides. And we know which side the "sensationalist media" is on. And also the people of Europe, who (according to your second link) drove the EU to qualify and then scuttle ISDS language in the TTIP after "a lengthy public consultative process."
So I come away wondering what is the value proposition for the public. Or is this provision all carrot?
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hillary reads the same to me, I must say. I have no idea what she genuinely believes. But, honestly, why would anyone run for president unless they were an insane egoist or craved power? It's not a job a sane person would volunteer to do. There are a few rare individuals that do it out of desire to do good, but they seem rarer by the day.
Pretty sure Hillary's views are well aligned with a typical leftist agenda. I don't see her passing pro gun or anti abortion laws for example.
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#175I would better trust EFF on this: https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/12/how-tpp-will-affect-yo...
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#176Wow. Even as the resident Google critic, I never expected Google would sink down to the level of endorsing the TPP. :/ This is a clear break from the EFF's position ( https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp ) and a strong indication of their increasing closed door ties with the Obama administration.
Or it could be an indication that Google is considering a bigger picture than the EFF is. TPP is a comprehensive agreement, covering a wide range of topics and activities. Here are the titles of the major components: Competition & Business Facilitation Competition Policy Cooperating & Capacity Building Cross Border Trade in Services Customs Administration & Trade Facilitation Development Dispute Settlement Electronic…
A core purpose of the EFF is to keep IP law from spinning out of control, and to roll back the places where it already has (which is pretty much everywhere). This would be more nearly impossible than it already is if the US laws calcify into treaty form, which is a very good reason for them to oppose the TPP.
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the US, the signature means little; it must be ratified after the fact by a 2/3 vote of the Senate to come into effect. So - we have a bit of time to influence our lawmakers. It must be a huge, SOPA-level effort, but it can be done. And it must be done.
Trade agreements are basically never treated as treaties, but are, after negotiated, submitted to Congress for passage as regular laws -- as TPP has been -- so it will take a simple majority in each house of Congress, followed by the signature of the President (or, 2/3 of each house to override a veto if one occurs.)
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#178This endorsement surprises me just because the TPP is so blatantly anti-consumer, pro-corporation. I'm under no illusion that Google's anything other massive tech-savvy advertising company, but the self-serving corporate side of the company is usually hidden behind the pretty veneer of "tech for the people". Supporting a trade agreement like the TPP (especially given the lack of transparency in the process) lacks the…
Is it anti-consumer? Convince me. I'm open. But I also want you to include counter-arguments. I want to hear both sides to reach a conclusion. So far most anti-TPP arguments I've read are high on rhetoric and low on substance.
Accept that free trade as a general principal is a good thing for all parties.
NAFTA and agreements modeled after it have this in common: They throw US manufacturing jobs under the bus so that we can all have more competitive, fuel efficient, cheaper, safer cars. (Hooray).
OK, so lets say we just killed ~2,000,000 'decent paying' jobs, many of them union, and did a number on hundreds of rust belt communities. Well thats fine, everyone is better off. We are saving money here. Saving Lives.
But what about other industries? Pharmaceuticals do not support nearly the number of jobs that auto industry does. Maybe 30,000 very well paying white collar jobs, people who are upwardly mobile and educated. It is widely accepted that that industry is sapping US economy of strength. We regularly pay 10X what other countries do. Why don't we open up that market to competition too!
Oh wait, thats an industry with deep connections in Washington. They rank up there with banks as the largest political donors, spend the most on lobbyists, and so on. So count them out, they don't need competition.
OK, so the standard counter argument to this is that Pharma is a special case. We let them keep the fat on their margins because... innovation! Think of all the lives we are saving by shoveling them money! If only it were that simple.
The overwhelming majority of the increase in lifespan over the past 100 years has not been modern medicine; its been public health efforts like sewars, safety standards, and as well as a handful of fluke cures like polio vaccine, penicillin, smallpox vaccine, no thanks to the pharmaceutical industrial complex.
I could go on, the point is that too often trade deals are structured to protect the politically connected and their interests while regressively opening up high employment industries to competition. So even if you believe that free trade is a great thing (I do) it is also valid to acknowledge that it has historically been adopted in a regressive way.
Medicine is by far the most flagrant example, but plenty of others.
Another valid, if more contrived argument is this: A trade agreement is a treaty. Once a treaty is passed, congress cannot easily change it; it become the domain of the executive branch and regulatory agencies specified in the treaty. So a lot of progressive critics see it as a way of creating a court system to mediate trade disputes which is not accountable to the laws that congress makes or repeals.
On example of this is the cigarette industry, which has successfully used NAFTA courts to prevent third word countries from banning sales or making labeling requirements on the grounds that it was a violation of IP and so on.
But the bigger problem is that you have this international body making decisions that effect everyone which is not directly accountable to anyone. So in its way it is a separation of powers and taxation without representation type argument which really requires deeper reading than I can provide here.
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hillary reads the same to me, I must say. I have no idea what she genuinely believes. But, honestly, why would anyone run for president unless they were an insane egoist or craved power? It's not a job a sane person would volunteer to do. There are a few rare individuals that do it out of desire to do good, but they seem rarer by the day.
Pretty sure Hillary's views are well aligned with a typical leftist agenda. I don't see her passing pro gun or anti abortion laws for example.
Re: Google endorses the Trans-Pacific Partnership
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which sounds like you're admitting that the treaty only benefits profits of large corporations and stops as soon as they'd have to give up a little bit to actualy help consumers across the world?
Don't put words in my mouth. I think the majority of the treaty is terrible, spreading laws that prop up businesses based on copyright and patents, and on balance I think that no country should adopt it. In this one particular case, it appears to remove artificial restrictions that prevent consumers from doing business with companies they otherwise want to do business with. I'm in favor of that, whether it's "you can…
Let's say Japan has the following two laws:
1. "Google cannot conduct business in Japan unless they store their data in Japan"
2. "Netflix cannot conduct business in Japan unless they allow complete access to all content"
Who does law (1) benefit, and who will be benefited if it goes away?
Same for (2).
> (Also, keep in mind that many of the "must store data locally" laws have less to do with protecting that data and more to do with making it available for attempted seizure.)
I think any government that would be interested in this, wouldn't sign the TPP agreement in the first place.