Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A deportation at the UK border

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 329 posts

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#291

Post by joshvm »

pjc50 wrote: post #6
rossng wrote: post #4

I am not happy about the continued existence of what are essentially rights-free zones at border crossings. Unfortunately, with the current political climate in the UK, I'm not sure the majority of my fellow countrymen would agree. And I'm certain Theresa May doesn't care. It's easy for politicians to ignore these problems, as they will almost never affect their own citizens. A similar situation exists with the NSA a…

Indeed. See also the ongoing sagas of people being deported from Scotland (Brain family, Zielsdorf family). The policy is brutal because people demand that "something must be done" about "immigrants". The system is made ever tighter, but it does nothing to dampen the complaints, because the people who the rightwing public actually want deported are either EU residents or second-generation nonwhite Muslim "immigrants"…

The hilarity, as pointed out by Lord Hesseltine on Any Questions this week, is that around half the immigrants to the UK come from outside the EU (it's a 50/50 split with 180k each). The EU has no control over them, and even if we totally blocked EU migration the government would still be 600% over its target.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#292

Post by rspeer »

PeterisP wrote: post #265
2skep wrote: post #111

Enough has been said about bad treatment by border guards about every country on earth so don't need to repeat it but I had the following exchange with a Canadian visa officer. Visa Officer:Your Name? How can I help you Me: Dr XYZ. I would like to apply for a visitor visa to Canada Visa Officer: Why would you like to go to Canada Me: I have been invited to speak at a conference Visa Officer: Hmm I see. Me: Is there a…

This is quite clear - in pretty much all first world countries, coming in to do some task and get paid for it is a huge red flag, it's "an immigrant asking for permit to work" for which the official process is slow and designed to deny most cases, and the main job of immigration officers essentially is trying to catch people who do the same on the standard "just come visit us" tourist visa. The thing is, these laws a…

Interesting perspective.

I wonder if the immigration officers described here actually thought they were being fair, because they were applying the law as written to a white American, even though the law was not written to keep out white Americans.

Which is to say, we can be horrified by the attitudes of the officers, but it's the law that needs to be changed, not their attitudes.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#293

Post by codecamper »

germanier wrote: post #278
codecamper wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was once called a "drifter" by a UK border guard. Pro tip: Enter the UK from Ireland. There is no document check. No annoying border guard questions! No body at all. Just walk on through. With Ryanair this will set you back a whole 30-50 bucks. Plus you can choose your London airport. When arriving in Ireland, tell them your purpose is to drink a real Guinness! And maybe learn how to dance the jig.

If you do that be aware that e.g. US citizens only get maximum of 90 days instead of six months. Sometimes bites passengers transiting through Ireland.

I didn't realize that... but it's also important to note that Ireland is not part of the Schengen zone. After your 90 in Ireland/UK, you can move on to to Europe.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#294

Post by darklajid »

outworlder wrote: post #287
darklajid wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. The GP post is condescending and useless in my world. Yes, I can recline in my armchair and come up with certain parts in the (honest?) recapitulation of this crazy trip. That's not helpful and not useful. I'm going to assume that the person in this article, after seemingly traveling around the world for conferences as part of her regular activities, has some basic understanding of what you should do at a…

We interpreted it differently, then. The point to take home is not how this person would perform so much better than the OP. Is which variables we can control to decrease the chance of such escalations. We can control some, but ultimately it's up to the immigration officers and host country laws. As for the trick. It is not a trick, it is something you need to do. The actual trick is not volunteering more information…

You're kind, I'm grumpy.

You're the better person.

The thing is: When you're in front of someone that is (my experience, matching the article) somewhere between unfriendly, annoyed and power-hungry and you KNOW that this person decides about your next couple of hours (or departure), rational advise by other people probably isn't the first thing to consider.

I know that I start to react differently in a car as soon as a police car is driving in my vincinity. I know that I personally felt like shit at most airport/border controls.

Yes, I could totally write a bot to answer with 'attend' vs 'speak' and 'vacation' vs 'work' for various answers. The rules of the game (it's a game. A terrible game) are easy enough. That doesn't change the fact that humans might get stuck, feel out of place, get anxious etc. etc..

The GP (and you in this kinder version) are flying across the sky here. Is it a plane? No, it's Captain Obvious.

You (both) are right. But the advise doesn't matter. The damage was done (for what benefit? Protecting the UK against .. what?) and I'd bet that the OP knows these guidelines as well.

Here's another thing: What good is a border control if all guidelines state that you should say basically nothing and fall back to "I'm on vacation" / "I'm visiting a conference" if pressed? If the .. helpful posts online try to explain how you might game the system or at least avoid suspicion? Look at all the threads here and you'll find people saying that you should just state this or that. That you shouldn't communicate something or another. Basically the tenor is that you should withhold information or (well, basically the same thing) lie to have it easy. It's messed up.

(Again: I think that you expressed the idea quite a bit less aggressive / accusatorily (if that's even a real word) though)

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#295

Post by schoen »

outworlder wrote: post #288
schoen wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just get proof of intent to exit/entry, and documentation that you can support yourself for the extent of the trip, and you can go anywhere no matter what your nationality (almost). Some of the rich-country governments, when granting tourist visas to people from poor countries, also look for proof that the visitor has a strong reason to return to their country, which can include things like owning property there, h…

I knew that you were talking about the US and Brazil even before you finished. There's a twist in the way US immigration law works: > because the consular officers often assume intent to overstay the visa They are required to by law and regulations. The burden is on you to prove you have enough ties to your home country to go back before your time is up. Depending on how old you are, being enrolled in college and tra…

> I knew that you were talking about the US and Brazil even before you finished.

I've also heard this about the Philippines and Nigeria.

But maybe Brazil has the largest number of would-be tourists who experience this level of skepticism.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#296

Post by darklajid »

outworlder wrote: post #287
darklajid wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. The GP post is condescending and useless in my world. Yes, I can recline in my armchair and come up with certain parts in the (honest?) recapitulation of this crazy trip. That's not helpful and not useful. I'm going to assume that the person in this article, after seemingly traveling around the world for conferences as part of her regular activities, has some basic understanding of what you should do at a…

We interpreted it differently, then. The point to take home is not how this person would perform so much better than the OP. Is which variables we can control to decrease the chance of such escalations. We can control some, but ultimately it's up to the immigration officers and host country laws. As for the trick. It is not a trick, it is something you need to do. The actual trick is not volunteering more information…

Ignoring my other answer: This is how I feel in "I need to sleep soon" simple bullet point statements.

1) "She didn't have the right visa and therefor wasn't allowed to enter/had to leave"

Fine. Bad for her. Her fault. Figure this out in 30-60min and help her to figure out a way to head back home.

2) "You should say … and not …" suggestions.

Awful. Especially combined with all the "Just state the truth. But try to avoid saying …" ideas. I really feel that these are out of place. Just look at this thread. You're trained to answer according to the protocol, instead of stating the truth.

3) _Anyone_ suggesting that the "detention" for hours at a time in a grimy place without any contact to the outside world and decent legal counsel is a valid reaction, whatever the potential immigrant failed to explain?

In that case, you are quite messed up in my world. I wonder what's wrong with you.

(the you in this case isn't addressed at the parent - it's the general "if the shoe fits" kind of thing)

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#297

Post by damagednoob »

pjlegato wrote: post #194

It's unfortunate what happened to this woman, and probably to many others, but there's no evidence given at all that the "people who look like us" angle was ever a factor in what happened. That is FUD that serves solely to to provoke an irrational emotional response in the reader, not rationally supported in any way. There's no evidence presented in this article to support the author's many claims that the UK immigra…

Could not agree more. I find it pretty rich to say "There’s a lot of racism in the UK." based off interactions with a country's border force. Am I allowed to make the same observations about the general US populace based on the way the Mexican border is operated? I had a lot of sympathy for Rachel's ordeal but this paragraph really left a bad taste.

As an immigrant to the UK (and now citizen), the single-mindedness in which "The Rules" are applied have been extremely frustrating. But at no point have I thought that it wasn't fair. I've had a visa application rejected and lost £350 in the process. I didn't follow the rules to the letter and I literally paid for it. Since then I've always followed the guidelines and not had an issue since.

> The very basis of the article -- a middle class professional white woman from the US was deported because she broke the rules, despite her "looks like us" appearance -- is evidence to the contrary.

The fact that she can't see the irony just reeks of privilege.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#298

Post by outworlder »

darklajid wrote: post #294
outworlder wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We interpreted it differently, then. The point to take home is not how this person would perform so much better than the OP. Is which variables we can control to decrease the chance of such escalations. We can control some, but ultimately it's up to the immigration officers and host country laws. As for the trick. It is not a trick, it is something you need to do. The actual trick is not volunteering more information…

You're kind, I'm grumpy. You're the better person. The thing is: When you're in front of someone that is (my experience, matching the article) somewhere between unfriendly, annoyed and power-hungry and you KNOW that this person decides about your next couple of hours (or departure), rational advise by other people probably isn't the first thing to consider. I know that I start to react differently in a car as soon as…

Frankly, it may be that today is a better than expected day for me. Any other day and my responses could have been less kind.

> The thing is: When you're in front of someone that is (my experience, matching the article) somewhere between unfriendly, annoyed and power-hungry and you KNOW that this person decides about your next couple of hours (or departure), rational advise by other people probably isn't the first thing to consider.

This is true. I avoided visiting my sister in the US for YEARS after my first contact with immigration authorities. And I wasn't even detained, just delayed for a couple of hours and had to wait in this room with other people. I've yet to visit Japan again, though. And it's been 16 years now.

> I know that I start to react differently in a car as soon as a police car is driving in my vincinity.

Yeap. The first time (and to this date, only) I was stopped by CHP, I was shaking. Not because I had done anything wrong, but it was precisely for the reason you describe. And I was treated in a very polite way, documentation checked, good to go have a nice day. I can imagine a less polite encounter wouldn't have gone so well.

It is all about power and how easily these people can screw up with you if they so desire. Thankfully, most people are just there for their jobs and have no intention of doing so.

In a sane system, we shouldn't have to rely on what someone's mood is in a specific day.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#299

Post by outworlder »

darklajid wrote: post #296
outworlder wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We interpreted it differently, then. The point to take home is not how this person would perform so much better than the OP. Is which variables we can control to decrease the chance of such escalations. We can control some, but ultimately it's up to the immigration officers and host country laws. As for the trick. It is not a trick, it is something you need to do. The actual trick is not volunteering more information…

Ignoring my other answer: This is how I feel in "I need to sleep soon" simple bullet point statements. 1) "She didn't have the right visa and therefor wasn't allowed to enter/had to leave" Fine. Bad for her. Her fault. Figure this out in 30-60min and help her to figure out a way to head back home. 2) "You should say … and not …" suggestions. Awful. Especially combined with all the "Just state the truth. But try to av…

> _Anyone_ suggesting that the "detention" for hours at a time in a grimy place without any contact to the outside world and decent legal counsel is a valid reaction, whatever the potential immigrant failed to explain?

That's just terrible and should be a human rights violation. AT THE VERY LEAST the emergency contact that you are required to provide should be informed of your whereabouts.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#300

Post by Scoundreller »

joshvm wrote: post #290
rdtsc wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a rule answers have to be as general as possible. The more specific information you give them voluntarily, the more they can find something to latch on and make your life miserable. Leave it up to them to ask more details. I wasn't a speaker at my last conference, but I could have been. But my conversation at the border was something like: "Why are you visiting Canada?" / "To go to a conference" / "Where is the co…

I had exactly this last week in Vancouver, very swift given how long the queue was (British citizen if that helps). "Why are you visiting Canada?" "I"m here for a conference" "What's the conference about?" "Computer vision, you know, programming research" "How long are you staying?" "A week" Stamp There was a point on the outbound journey where they were checking everyone's passports by the scanner (i.e. you'd go thr…

> British citizen if that helps

It does, the lineups at Toronto's Pearson Int'l airport are longer for Canadians in my experience.

Post reply on HN