A deportation at the UK border • Hacker News Board

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#281

Post by germanier » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #242

kybernetikos wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actively avoid the US these days because the last time I went, we spent ages in a queue being shouted at by irate border control folk and then were required to have our fingerprints taken. This was just for a vacation.

This isn't common knowledge amongst travellers, but if you have travelled to the US at least once since 2008 and have a valid ESTA, you can use automated passport control like the US citizens now - saves a ton of time and from having to queue up in the longer line.

If the airport staff there actually knows about the rule. Too often you are just sent to the back of the regular line before being given the chance of using the machine.

(And it does not allow for entering on visa.)

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#282

Post by jcdavis » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 9:02 PM UTC

IanDrake wrote: post #258

rdtsc wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a rule answers have to be as general as possible. The more specific information you give them voluntarily, the more they can find something to latch on and make your life miserable. Leave it up to them to ask more details. I wasn't a speaker at my last conference, but I could have been. But my conversation at the border was something like: "Why are you visiting Canada?" / "To go to a conference" / "Where is the co…

"Why are you visiting Canada?" "On vacation." Done.

I know someone (US citizen) who did this exact thing for a work trip to Vancouver and was denied because he got himself into a trap trying to explain what he would be doing.

Honesty might get you in trouble, but thats still probably a better place to be than trying to lie your way out

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#283

Post by germanier » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 9:06 PM UTC

mcherm wrote: post #279

germanier wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not justifying what happened here and certainly the treatment she got was excessive. However, the reason that she had for entering the UK did require a visa that she had to obtain before traveling. The fact that she would have gotten admitted into the country if she would have given vague or wrong answers to the questions doesn't mean she is actually "innocent". Immigration officers are trained to pick up on peop…

> Immigration officers are trained to pick up on people violating the law and she certainly was. I question your statement that she "certainly" was violating the law. She and the conference organizers had researched the situation beforehand and attempted to obtain the correct visa. The publicly available information about the visa programs did not specify that the nationality of the company sponsoring the conference…

The origin of the company is irrelevant (even if the officer asked questions about this topic – they like doing that). Even if it had been a British company she would not had been allowed in. The rules are clear (Getting paid? Not getting in visa-free with very few exceptions).

And even if there would have been no appropriate visa to apply for that means the UK does not want those people in. Turning up at the border and requesting entry based on a reason not allowed on the visa-free program is not a solution no matter how wrong the situation feels.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#284

Post by outworlder » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #252

outworlder wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but be careful. * Do not lie to immigration officials, ever! * I can't stress this enough. "Attending a conference" would have been true. The fact that she was a speaker as well is additional information that she could disclose if asked . "A short vacation" could work, but beware. Depending on the country, this could get a flight back very quickly. Taking the US as an example: there's a "tourism" visa, and th…

All good points. If you say "here for a quick vacation", then they search your belongings and find an agenda for a conference or business papers, you can be sure you'll be denied entry.

Exactly. And that's not theoretical.

In Japan they did just that (after a few hours had passed already). They asked for some document (don't remember what), I pulled it from something similar to a file folder and handed to them. Was then asked to leave everything in the room and escorted back.

They found a list of phone numbers and addresses and asked what those were. They were for Prometric test centers. I was trying to get a Compaq certification at a time, Had already done two tests, was missing the third. I couldn't wait until after I came back from vacation due to a deadline, so had to take the third one there. Had to explain all this in Portuguese to a Spanish translator, to get that translated to Japanese.

I'm still amazed that they let me in. Took the test in Tokyo. Then HP bought Compaq. Poof the certification went.

I was even asked if I was religious. I had this postcard with a christian theme from my grandma to my aunt.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#285

Post by robjan » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

davb wrote: post #247

petercooper wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end, the guy asked for my passport and attached a "Security cleared" sticker to it. FWIW, Virgin has slapped tons of these on my passport without such an interview. They appear to be applied once you have answered the mandatory questions around your baggage (i.e. did you pack it yourself? are there any prohibited items?)

That's what I initially thought, but he didn't ask anything about my luggage. That would have made it too obvious it was a security interview. We were asked the standard baggage questions by the check-in agent. The ICTS thing was something completely different and new to us. When we got to the gate, the same group of covert screeners were there waiting for us and doing additional screening. I showed my passport to th…

The purpose of ICTS process is to establish that you will not be deported from your destination country. When they put the sticker on the passport it means that they are satisfied that you have the correct visa/visa waiver to enter. If you get deported then the airline has to repatriate you at their expense.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#286

Post by andrewaylett » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 9:19 PM UTC

It bothers me that people have to already know their rights to be able to take advantage of them.

On one hand, due process. I can see that the option to waive one's rights might be occasionally beneficial, but mostly to the police/border force, rather that to the individual. Police do at least have to tell someone their basic rights, but I find it really difficult to understand people who think that it makes sense to try to deny anyone due process by not doing that (see the Boston Bombers).

On the other hand, there are positive rights mentioned here, like the right to go to a hotel to get some sleep. It doesn't seem likely that anyone would know about it unless they were told, so why don't we tell them at the appropriate time? Again, time constraints might mean that in some cases people don't want to take advantage of their rights, but I'm disappointed at how much worse the author's experience was than it should have been.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#287

Post by outworlder » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

darklajid wrote: post #269

outworlder wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point out what has wrong with his assessment? He plainly states that he is not defending anything. And is offering useful advice. Remember it the next time you need to cross a border.

I'll bite. The GP post is condescending and useless in my world. Yes, I can recline in my armchair and come up with certain parts in the (honest?) recapitulation of this crazy trip. That's not helpful and not useful. I'm going to assume that the person in this article, after seemingly traveling around the world for conferences as part of her regular activities, has some basic understanding of what you should do at a…

We interpreted it differently, then.

The point to take home is not how this person would perform so much better than the OP. Is which variables we can control to decrease the chance of such escalations. We can control some, but ultimately it's up to the immigration officers and host country laws.

As for the trick. It is not a trick, it is something you need to do. The actual trick is not volunteering more information than necessary.

"Hi officer. I'm mostly here for a vacation, but there will be a day where I'll speak at a conference, and another where I'll distribute resumés and meet employees from several companies to expand my network, in the hopes of getting a job with one that will sponsor a visa in the future, even though I know most will be there for the free labor. It's called a hackaton. Also, I think you'd look better without those glasses."

Not telling the truth can get you a trip back at a port of entry. Or handcuffs at a consulate or embassy. Doesn't mean you need to tell them everything going through your mind at the time.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#288

Post by outworlder » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

schoen wrote: post #251

true_religion wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fairly easy to get a tourist visa to almost any country. Just get proof of intent to exit/entry, and documentation that you can support yourself for the extent of the trip, and you can go anywhere no matter what your nationality (almost). Thus applying for a tourist visa then overstaying is often the easiest way to illegally immigrate---especially in a country like the USA, where there are plenty of non-standard…

> Just get proof of intent to exit/entry, and documentation that you can support yourself for the extent of the trip, and you can go anywhere no matter what your nationality (almost). Some of the rich-country governments, when granting tourist visas to people from poor countries, also look for proof that the visitor has a strong reason to return to their country, which can include things like owning property there, h…

I knew that you were talking about the US and Brazil even before you finished.

There's a twist in the way US immigration law works:

> because the consular officers often assume intent to overstay the visa

They are required to by law and regulations. The burden is on you to prove you have enough ties to your home country to go back before your time is up.

Depending on how old you are, being enrolled in college and traveling during vacations is enough. A little older, having a decent job is a good sign. Being a software engineer, for instance, is better, no matter if the janitor who was denied before you had money in his account. I've never been asked to show any sort of financial proof whatsoever. For the US, at least.

They also look into your family. If one of them has overstayed a visa or otherwise done bad things in the eyes of the immigration authorities, you'll have a really hard time. Or an easier time, if they have done everything right.

Now, suppose you have a relative who has applied your permanent residence. And then you decide to visit them for vacation while that is ongoing (can take more than a decade). You now have intent to immigrate, the application itself is the proof. Good luck.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#289

Post by davb » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 9:49 PM UTC

robjan wrote: post #285

davb wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I initially thought, but he didn't ask anything about my luggage. That would have made it too obvious it was a security interview. We were asked the standard baggage questions by the check-in agent. The ICTS thing was something completely different and new to us. When we got to the gate, the same group of covert screeners were there waiting for us and doing additional screening. I showed my passport to th…

The purpose of ICTS process is to establish that you will not be deported from your destination country. When they put the sticker on the passport it means that they are satisfied that you have the correct visa/visa waiver to enter. If you get deported then the airline has to repatriate you at their expense.

I don't think so, in this case.

We weren't asked anything about completion of an ESTA or API. It definitely felt like more of a security/behavioural screening - not a check on visa or travel eligibility.

If this was the case, they'd have made their intentions clear and wouldn't have been at the gate waiting to re-check passengers. Or that check would have been performed at the check-in desk, where they check your eligibility to travel (correct documentation, tickets, etc).

I do suspect, however, that they're contracted by the airline. They weren't in any other airline's check-in queue and we've never seen them in the past (this was our first time flying AA).

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#290

Post by joshvm » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:06 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #128

2skep wrote: post #111

Enough has been said about bad treatment by border guards about every country on earth so don't need to repeat it but I had the following exchange with a Canadian visa officer. Visa Officer:Your Name? How can I help you Me: Dr XYZ. I would like to apply for a visitor visa to Canada Visa Officer: Why would you like to go to Canada Me: I have been invited to speak at a conference Visa Officer: Hmm I see. Me: Is there a…

As a rule answers have to be as general as possible. The more specific information you give them voluntarily, the more they can find something to latch on and make your life miserable. Leave it up to them to ask more details. I wasn't a speaker at my last conference, but I could have been. But my conversation at the border was something like: "Why are you visiting Canada?" / "To go to a conference" / "Where is the co…

I had exactly this last week in Vancouver, very swift given how long the queue was (British citizen if that helps).

"Why are you visiting Canada?"

"I"m here for a conference"

"What's the conference about?"

"Computer vision, you know, programming research"

"How long are you staying?"

"A week"

Stamp

There was a point on the outbound journey where they were checking everyone's passports by the scanner (i.e. you'd go through and everyone would set the alarm off, but it seemed to be a passport check rather than anything else), as soon as they saw it was British they lost interest.