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A deportation at the UK border

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Re: A deportation at the UK border

#271

Post by mthoms »

DanBC wrote: post #47
rossng wrote: post #4

I am not happy about the continued existence of what are essentially rights-free zones at border crossings. Unfortunately, with the current political climate in the UK, I'm not sure the majority of my fellow countrymen would agree. And I'm certain Theresa May doesn't care. It's easy for politicians to ignore these problems, as they will almost never affect their own citizens. A similar situation exists with the NSA a…

Wait what, what rights did she not have?

>Wait what, what rights did she not have?

The right to leave and the right to privacy primarily.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#272

Post by bruceb »

proactivesvcs wrote: post #177
michaelbuckbee wrote: post #41

Stepping slightly back from this particular horrible experience, I don't understand _why_ this particular set of institutional rules are in place. Was there a thought that foreign speakers who were subsidized by foreign governments were inciting rebellion? Are there tax issues? Was this some big money laundering loophole or something? Is there a concern that people were using this as figleaf to immigrate illegally?

The rules are in place because of the deeply-ingrained xenophobia gripping the UK. Trying to find logical reason behind the rules won't get you anywhere!

>deeply-ingrained xenophobia gripping the UK

so ingrained that people from all over the world live in the UK.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#273

Post by 13of40 »

IanDrake wrote: post #258
rdtsc wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a rule answers have to be as general as possible. The more specific information you give them voluntarily, the more they can find something to latch on and make your life miserable. Leave it up to them to ask more details. I wasn't a speaker at my last conference, but I could have been. But my conversation at the border was something like: "Why are you visiting Canada?" / "To go to a conference" / "Where is the co…

"Why are you visiting Canada?" "On vacation." Done.

About sixteen years ago (I remember, because it was back before 9/11, when you could go to Canada without a passport) I got bored one weekend and drove up to Vancouver by myself. I got to the border, and answered the standard questions like "who do you know here" and "is this your car". Then the border agent asked me the purpose of my visit, and I said "uhhhh, tourism, ha ha". They let me in about an hour later after the car search and police background check came up clean. I guess the moral of the story is come prepared and try to be convincing, because they can screw you over on a whim.

On the other hand, I've gotten across with no delay at all by saying "I'm picking up a friend at the Vancouver airport" and "I'm going to go buy this drill press off of Craigslist -- see this printout?" Neither of those is illegal, and in neither case can they expect you to have hotel reservations or know any Canadians, etc.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#274

Post by mthoms »

golergka wrote: post #221
Manishearth wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, except the questions asked weren't relevant to that (i don't remember what they were; this was years ago -- I remember my mom saying that they were confrontational and more focused on figuring out if the old people were terrorists)

Confrontational questions are a usual tactic in such interrogations; the goal is not to get the answers, but to get the subject into an agitated state, so he would have a harder time lying about the real questions.

I wish more people understood this. When a border guard goes off on an a bizarre line of questioning, the intent is not simply to know the factual answers to those questions. Rather, it's to gauge your response and to disarm you mentally.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#275

Post by analyst74 »

PeterisP wrote: post #265
2skep wrote: post #111

Enough has been said about bad treatment by border guards about every country on earth so don't need to repeat it but I had the following exchange with a Canadian visa officer. Visa Officer:Your Name? How can I help you Me: Dr XYZ. I would like to apply for a visitor visa to Canada Visa Officer: Why would you like to go to Canada Me: I have been invited to speak at a conference Visa Officer: Hmm I see. Me: Is there a…

This is quite clear - in pretty much all first world countries, coming in to do some task and get paid for it is a huge red flag, it's "an immigrant asking for permit to work" for which the official process is slow and designed to deny most cases, and the main job of immigration officers essentially is trying to catch people who do the same on the standard "just come visit us" tourist visa. The thing is, these laws a…

I don't like the laws that stops people from moving around, but if it's written in law, it's not meant to be creatively interpreted like it does not apply to you if you are from a first world country.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#276

Post by lucozade »

eitally wrote: post #191
lucozade wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's better to withhold information unless explicitly requested But that's not the question. The question is whether or not it's better to lie about why you're travelling. Now, for some percentage of the time it probably is better in practice. But it's a trade with a fairly large downside. Border agents have lots of reasons to carry out checks so you'll need to be very sure that everything else is completely fine a…

I agree 100%. In this case she should have dotted i's and crossed t's and known inside & out exactly what the rule are governing the actions she was planning. As a longtime corporate employee, even I knew that specifying anything besides "business meetings" throws flags... but this isn't common knowledge for most people, nor are the minutiae governing specific reasons for travel to specific places. For example, if yo…

Indeed. What I think is happening is that international travel is a little too easy. Not a bad thing of itself but it's easy to get caught out thinking that it's just like intranatioanl travel.

It hit home to me a few years ago when I was travelling between the US and UK a fair amount. One time I arrived in JFK and realised that all the ATMs were down. I also realised that I had travelled thousands of miles and hadn't bothered to carry any local currency. It hadn't occurred to me that this was a bit stupid because, well, it hadn't been a problem before. Was a bit of a wake up call to think a bit more in future.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#277

Post by _delirium »

scott_s wrote: post #32
petercooper wrote: post #8

There is no VISA you can get to receive an honorarium for speaking in the UK Potential international speakers should also be warned this is also true of the US - except for certain types of academic institution (INA 212(q)). The UK also allows it via https://www.gov.uk/permitted-paid-engagement-visa but again, only for arts or academia. A commercial conference doesn't count, annoyingly (or even a community conference…

What an amazing difference a single word makes. I have travelled to the UK to attend and speak at an academic conference, and I probably said so to border agents. That single word probably makes a difference. I never even considered that I would be turned away.

I've also had no trouble when saying I'm attending an academic conference. However I have on occasion been asked follow-up questions about it, including once whether I was being paid to speak. I truthfully answered "no", but I imagine things could've gone less smoothly if I'd have answered "yes".

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#278

Post by germanier »

codecamper wrote: post #220
jackgavigan wrote: post #7

Unfortunately, like other countries, the UK's Border Force[1] clearly has an above-average share of incompetents and bullies. If you give such people any power whatsoever, they will abuse it. Sadly, that's what happened here. The real problem is that there is no accountability in these organisations. Even if a complaint by Rachel triggered an investigation, the culture in organisations like this is to protect their o…

I was once called a "drifter" by a UK border guard. Pro tip: Enter the UK from Ireland. There is no document check. No annoying border guard questions! No body at all. Just walk on through. With Ryanair this will set you back a whole 30-50 bucks. Plus you can choose your London airport. When arriving in Ireland, tell them your purpose is to drink a real Guinness! And maybe learn how to dance the jig.

If you do that be aware that e.g. US citizens only get maximum of 90 days instead of six months. Sometimes bites passengers transiting through Ireland.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#279

Post by mcherm »

germanier wrote: post #149
stupidcar wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but this is just victim blaming. Innocent people should not have to avoid being truthful or complete in their answers just to avoid arousing "suspicion". Innocent people should not have to know ahead-of-time that giving honest and complete answers to an official will lead to this kind of treatment. This kind of treatment should not be acceptable under any circumstances for people who are actually innocent and/…

I'm not justifying what happened here and certainly the treatment she got was excessive. However, the reason that she had for entering the UK did require a visa that she had to obtain before traveling. The fact that she would have gotten admitted into the country if she would have given vague or wrong answers to the questions doesn't mean she is actually "innocent". Immigration officers are trained to pick up on peop…

> Immigration officers are trained to pick up on people violating the law and she certainly was.

I question your statement that she "certainly" was violating the law. She and the conference organizers had researched the situation beforehand and attempted to obtain the correct visa. The publicly available information about the visa programs did not specify that the nationality of the company sponsoring the conference made a difference. You state "the reason that she had for entering the UK did require a visa that she had to obtain before traveling" but according to her research after the fact the truth is that the reason that she had for entering the UK was not supported by any sort of visa.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#280

Post by gaius »

majewsky wrote: post #198
exolymph wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a Bayesian thing: relatively low risk that a given man will assault you multiplied by the extreme personal suffering of being assaulted = high alert in situations where it would be easy for a man to assault you. She's already vulnerable and exhausted. I would feel uneasy too.

To add insult to injury, these men were already selected as suspicious by the immigration officers. The psychological effect is quite easily imagined, regardless of the usefulness of their definition of "suspicious".

If she was innocent, could they not have been too?
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