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A deportation at the UK border

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Re: A deportation at the UK border

#261
Last time I flew into the US (from Sweden) for another week of work meetings with the team in the Bay area something almost like this happened to me. I wasn't deported though, just sent off to secondary interrogation and was scared and delayed for an extra hour because of nothing.

The reason? I was asked by the clerk when I last flew out of the US. Being quite groggy from a very long trip, having made made, many other international trips since that date in January, I was not able to quickly enough answer him in a "confident" manner. I was not allowed to use my phone to actually look up the date.

At almost every step until the absolute last minutes, when I actually got to talk to someone, explain my situation, show my business card etc, I was met with passive aggressive hostility.

My passport was taken away with my by some random uniformed person who just walked away with into some other room. I had no trust in this obviously incompetent system, so I worried about actually getting the passport back. Everything just seemed incredibly... stupid and arbitrary.

If it's just a matter of keeping these mouth breeders occupied it would be a lot more transparent and less disruprupting if you'd just ask an entry fee to your magic kingdom, to pay for the upkeep of these people.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#262

This was her mistake: "..where a young man somberly asked me what brought me to the UK. “I’m giving a talk at a conference then traveling to see a bit of England. I have a letter of invitation,” I replied, confidently handing over the requested documents." Just say "A short vacation", whether it is or not. Don't give the agent any more information than they need. Throughout her entire encounter with the agents, she w…

Agreed, but be careful. * Do not lie to immigration officials, ever! * I can't stress this enough. "Attending a conference" would have been true. The fact that she was a speaker as well is additional information that she could disclose if asked . "A short vacation" could work, but beware. Depending on the country, this could get a flight back very quickly. Taking the US as an example: there's a "tourism" visa, and th…

"Taking the US as an example: there's a "tourism" visa, and there's a "business", which includes attending conferences. "

No one will check you visa at the conference. So, while not lying about it, there is no reason to be open about it either since you will never get "caught".

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#263

This is a great article on how /not/ to talk to immigration officials, anywhere. I don't defend any heavy-handed attitude of the officers. It's just useful to understand the purpose behind the process. > the young immigrations officer at LHR was very inquisitive about this old friend I was going to meet while I was in London for a conference: Who was he? Where did he live? What was our relationship? My awkward answer…

Aw, thanks bro, we're living in 1984 here but don't mind us! We're busy trying to decide whether the burgeoning police state will continue to get worse within the EU or whether we'd be better off to have a cheeky Brexit and risk the Tories going full nazi meltdown later. 'May you live in interesting times' indeed. Did you miss the bit about banging her up, infringing her rights, stealing her phone, raising his voice tut-tut, generally threatening and abusing her? All still illegal in the UK, well until DC says otherwise with a bit of late night emergency secret selectively applied retrospective legislation. And the secret trick? What do you think she was telling them? How about 'No comment'. You won't find this on uk.gov probably, you won't find anything of much utility, being a propaganda site, how certain people would like the law to be rather than how it really is, for now.

'Sorry ma'am you cannot have that visa, you'll have to get temporary visitor visa instead - please note you can't work, enjoy your HOLIDAY'. A civilised country wouldn't even need to interview her. They're not fit to control anything bigger than a cloakroom.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#264
post #183

Several generations from now people are going to tell their kids stories of how there used to be people that traveled between countries. I don't see how technology can prevent this outcome, if anything it will make it worse. Governments are just too paranoid and criminals/terrorist too eager to make them punish everyone for their crimes. Vaguely related, did you know Japan has taken in a total of THREE immigrants thi…

Strange, I know a couple of people who have worked in Japan for periods of a few years - legally I hasten to add - and who have experienced no special difficulties. Those periods of work were pre-2000 and a decade ago more or less. Is this a new phenomenon?

Were they on a work visa with a defined ending date?

Probably seen as not a threat like immigration.

But I bet overstaying a visa ends very badly there.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#265
post #111

Enough has been said about bad treatment by border guards about every country on earth so don't need to repeat it but I had the following exchange with a Canadian visa officer. Visa Officer:Your Name? How can I help you Me: Dr XYZ. I would like to apply for a visitor visa to Canada Visa Officer: Why would you like to go to Canada Me: I have been invited to speak at a conference Visa Officer: Hmm I see. Me: Is there a…

This is quite clear - in pretty much all first world countries, coming in to do some task and get paid for it is a huge red flag, it's "an immigrant asking for permit to work" for which the official process is slow and designed to deny most cases, and the main job of immigration officers essentially is trying to catch people who do the same on the standard "just come visit us" tourist visa.

The thing is, these laws are not meant to apply to "you", and the enforcement officers understand that - these laws are designed for people from lower-income countries seeking prolonged employment, i.e., economic migration; not first-world travelers that happen to earn some money while on the trip - the immigration officers entire reason of existence is to detect and prevent the former, while the latter doesn't matter, so they understand all the factors but since it's hard to draw an exact line, these laws do apply to e.g. conference speakers as well, and if you explicitly disclose to them that yes, you intend to do some paid job during your trip, then they pretty much have to deport you, and it's much harder for them to turn a blind eye and follow just the intent/goal of that law.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#266
If you ever feel like being dehumanized in the most senseless fashion, immigration is definitely the way to go.

Currently an immigrant in Canada, I recently went through a bit of an ordeal. I've been a Temporary Foreign Worker for a few years now, and every year or so, you are required to renew your work permit. So far, this is pretty standard. My first work permit was issues in about five days under a special clause for French speakers, allowing my to forego the Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA). It went really smoothly overall.

The next year, I renewed my work permit, only this time around it took three and a half months. The clause for French speakers had been renamed and moved to a different set of documents, but I had found it. My original work permit had expired while waiting for the renewed one, but at least I was on implied status, so I could work, though I no longer had access to free healthcare, nor could I leave the country (as it would mean losing implied status).

Then last year, I went through the same motions to renew my work permit. This time, it took even longer than the previous time and the same "implied status" thing applied. Four and a half months later, I received a message telling me that as of a specific date, the same date I received the message, I no longer had status, because of a missing form from my employer. As it turned out, Canadian immigrations had changed the rules the previous year, and employers were now required to submit a fee along with a form to essentially prove they wanted to hire you (different from an LMIA). This is quite obviously a money-grabbing scheme, but let's not get caught up. I was never made aware of this change in the rules, and clearly my employer didn't pick up on it, yet I was the one paying the consequences. This is all knowing that the conditions of my employment have remained completely unchanged during my whole time in Canada.

Not knowing what was going to happen, I was pretty distraught. On top of that, my original application fees had essentially gone down the drain, and I had to re-submit my application and the associated fees, including a premium to restore my status (all within thirty days), all the while receiving no income and not being eligible for Employment Insurance (which I pay, but ironically am not entitled to, since no work = no status = no benefits). I thought I could at least leave the country and go work somewhere else for a while, but that would have invalidated my work permit altogether, a risk I could not take.

So I went through the motions, again, getting and submitting information I had already provided countless times. My friends and family kept asking how long it was going to take, to which I had absolutely no answer, nor any recourse to get any sort of clarifications. I had no idea how long my money would last or what my life would become (I've very much settled here, relationship, friends, etc.). Trying to find reassurance through other people or on the Internet ended up achieving the opposite (some of the stories you can read on immigration forums just want to make you cry).

A few months later, my work permit was thankfully restored. I now have to mention my work permit refusal and restoration in all immigration-related matters, in the same section that asks you whether you've been associated to terrorists, have murdered somebody and the likes.

There are many situations far worse than mine, people having their immigration applications cancelled out of the blue, people unable to work but stuck in the country for up to a few a years at a time, not knowing what the outcome will be, etc.

The uncertainty and opaqueness of the whole process is truly mind-boggling. It is genuinely impossible to find a single, reliable source of information. The Canadian Immigration website contains a lot of conflicting and outdated information, lots of links don't work, the language is wildly inconsistent, and more. Calling Canadian immigration will have you on hold for extended periods of time, to eventually be told in one form or another that they won't provide you with any information that's not explicitly on the website. Should you ask for any clarifications, or god forbid point to a problem with the information that's provided, you will systematically be told to seek private help. This essentially means finding immigration lawyers, who I learnt later (from an immigration lawyer friend as I did/could not hire one) do most of their work based on precedent, as immigration law is so unpredictable.

This is actually an absurdly compact version of the whole story. I could have mentioned the inherent stress of never knowing whether you have done something wrong, the profiling of immigrants in the name of equality, the rampant abuse of the immigration system by elected officials, the government-backed ponzi scheme for immigrant qualifications, and many more. Hopefully though, for those who are new to this game, this is enough to digest for now.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#267
post #114

I'm Scottish, and I absolutely detest traveling through Heathrow. The security and border controls there are some of the most oppressive I've ever encountered. Depending on where you're flying, that could include multiple baggage searches and multiple biometric photos (flying OUT of the UK, I counted three - security, a secondary queue before entering the terminal concourse, and at the gate). Questioning why you're b…

I actually think that's a better way to do it than what we usually have to go through.

I believe the Israel uses this technique as well.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#268
post #108
post #12

Just a small remark: If you're visiting the USA your fingerprints get taken every time (at least thats my experience). So that part of the story (an american complaining that their fingerprints got taken in the UK) is kind of skewed perspective.

Both the UK and the USA border authorities share their biometric databases like gossip girls. Even when there's (5, 10 year) limit on the records, the safe bet it's been shared with rest of the globe and make endless circles via law enforcement cooperation. I figure my fingerprints will be in the system decades after I die.

The UK police are infamous for clinging on to biometric data for years and years after courts have ordered said data destroyed.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horseshit. As a Romanian my parents witnessed the absolute scumness of people taking pleasure in hurting others (we killed thousands of our own in communist prisons). If you don't realise that what she witnessed is in the same registry of a disgusting human trait, and not something to be defended, you're not only living in Fantasy Land, but also spreading dangerous bullshit.

Can you point out what has wrong with his assessment? He plainly states that he is not defending anything. And is offering useful advice. Remember it the next time you need to cross a border.

I'll bite. The GP post is condescending and useless in my world. Yes, I can recline in my armchair and come up with certain parts in the (honest?) recapitulation of this crazy trip. That's not helpful and not useful.

I'm going to assume that the person in this article, after seemingly traveling around the world for conferences as part of her regular activities, has some basic understanding of what you should do at a border.

So here's what I see when I read the GP:

- Hah, bad luck. But it's on you.

- I wouldn't end up in this situation, because I know how the system works

- "The secret trick is to tell the truth." (Except that part of the interview goes wrong when she honestly cannot remember if she got paid 2 years ago and admits as much)

Getting back: What is wrong with that assessment? Basically everything, but mostly the tone and the attitude.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#270
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a rule answers have to be as general as possible. The more specific information you give them voluntarily, the more they can find something to latch on and make your life miserable. Leave it up to them to ask more details. I wasn't a speaker at my last conference, but I could have been. But my conversation at the border was something like: "Why are you visiting Canada?" / "To go to a conference" / "Where is the co…

The only problem is that while this is fantastic advice, it just means that the people who are going to be abused in the systems are the ones who haven't gotten the message, or otherwise struggle to implement it.

It's sort of a rule of bureaucracy that those who take an effort to be as accurate as possible will hit invisible edges and be scrutinized - those who don't will just sail smoothly or simply fall through the net.

I know that b/c my lifestyle is sometimes "unusual" while at the same time I have a strong inherent tendency to be very correct and "overly" honest. :D

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