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A deportation at the UK border

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Re: A deportation at the UK border

#201

Post by chiph »

arcticbull wrote: post #117
growt wrote: post #12

Just a small remark: If you're visiting the USA your fingerprints get taken every time (at least thats my experience). So that part of the story (an american complaining that their fingerprints got taken in the UK) is kind of skewed perspective.

I've lived in the US for 6 years, first as a TN then as an H-1B, and I have Global Entry (and NEXUS). My favorite welcome back to the US is a a little note at the bottom of the receipt the Global Entry kiosk prints every time I show up: "Warning.... an alien that accepts unauthorized employment is subject to deportation" Thanks guys, it's great to be back ^_^

That's pretty standard. Think about every communication you've ever gotten from the government. There's always a warning somewhere on it. "Penalty for private use: $300" -- like I'm going to re-use an IRS envelope.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#202

Post by davb »

germanier wrote: post #172
davb wrote: post #114

I'm Scottish, and I absolutely detest traveling through Heathrow. The security and border controls there are some of the most oppressive I've ever encountered. Depending on where you're flying, that could include multiple baggage searches and multiple biometric photos (flying OUT of the UK, I counted three - security, a secondary queue before entering the terminal concourse, and at the gate). Questioning why you're b…

The Israeli government swears by this method. Given the high threat-level and low incident rate one shouldn't say it's ineffective. Honestly, I would rather have such a method than the almost useless security theatre we face at every airport. (After clicking the link I noticed that it's actually founded by former Israeli intelligence workers.)

I think the threats are a little different here, however.

I can understand the need for more compromise somewhere like Israel where there's a very visible and real terror threat. It's perhaps a more applicable system in that environment. We don't have that here - I don't think it's particularly useful given the threat landscape in the UK.

Perhaps at the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland, where there was a tangible threat of terrorism.

If we're to be interviewed in line by security officers, I'd prefer that they identify themselves as such and make it clear that this is a security screening and not just a friendly chat from a genuinely interested CS agent. To do otherwise just seems deceitful.

Edit: To add, while I don't necessarily agree with your assessment, I did upvote your comment - I think it adds to the discussion and provides some valuable perspective.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#203

Post by outworlder »

jbob2000 wrote: post #16

This was her mistake: "..where a young man somberly asked me what brought me to the UK. “I’m giving a talk at a conference then traveling to see a bit of England. I have a letter of invitation,” I replied, confidently handing over the requested documents." Just say "A short vacation", whether it is or not. Don't give the agent any more information than they need. Throughout her entire encounter with the agents, she w…

Agreed, but be careful. * Do not lie to immigration officials, ever! * I can't stress this enough.

"Attending a conference" would have been true. The fact that she was a speaker as well is additional information that she could disclose if asked.

"A short vacation" could work, but beware. Depending on the country, this could get a flight back very quickly. Taking the US as an example: there's a "tourism" visa, and there's a "business", which includes attending conferences. For convenience, they have been issuing both at the same time if you ask for it on your application. However, if you only have the "tourism" visa, and it turns out that you are doing non-touristic activities at any time (such as going to a conference) and you don't have the required visa for that, you will be turned back.

As for the letter of invitation, if things are going smoothly, then it is not needed. If things start to look like they aren't going so well, then you pull out the letter of invitation.

Any information you volunteer opens new avenues for questioning. At some point you might be misinterpreted or be asked follow up questions that you don't recall. That never helps.

I don't wish this sort of experience to anyone. But the thing is, she's complaining as if the UK was an outlier. Her country does the same things, only worse.

Disclaimer: My views may be biased, but they are from experience.

Spent 4 hours to go through japanese immigration once - with my uncle, who is a citizen, in the next room(which I couldn't see) to check my answers. Were it not for him, I would have been sent back for sure.

Several US visas issued in the last few years, no rejections. No issues per se, other than navigating the amount of paperwork required (and double, triple, quadruple checking any information before submitting) and the required traveling. There's also the research required to make damn sure I was complying with all requirements.

Spent some time in a "yellow room" at the Atlanta port of entry. Consulate had messed up my fingerprints.

Went through immigration through Portugal a few times. No issues, even if they had to double check my info.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#205

Post by outworlder »

CptMouse wrote: post #188
paulsutter wrote: post #178

This is a great article on how /not/ to talk to immigration officials, anywhere. I don't defend any heavy-handed attitude of the officers. It's just useful to understand the purpose behind the process. > the young immigrations officer at LHR was very inquisitive about this old friend I was going to meet while I was in London for a conference: Who was he? Where did he live? What was our relationship? My awkward answer…

Horseshit. As a Romanian my parents witnessed the absolute scumness of people taking pleasure in hurting others (we killed thousands of our own in communist prisons). If you don't realise that what she witnessed is in the same registry of a disgusting human trait, and not something to be defended, you're not only living in Fantasy Land, but also spreading dangerous bullshit.

Can you point out what has wrong with his assessment?

He plainly states that he is not defending anything. And is offering useful advice. Remember it the next time you need to cross a border.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#206

Post by vinceguidry »

tobltobs wrote: post #175
vinceguidry wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order you to get in trouble for lying then they have to catch you in a lie. The easiest way for them to do that is for them to get you to admit to lying. This is why it's so important for you to give short, non-committal answers to their questions that reveal nothing, and to never let your guard down, because customs officials (any kind of security personnel, really) are not your friends.

To be sure that they couldn't catch her lying, she would have to avoid to take anything with her which could give a hint for her real purpose of visit. Also she should avoid that her name is for example on the speaker list. Also she should have a complete faked travel plan for her touristic visit, including hotel bookings. Does this sound realistic?

Me personally, I would be sure to bring nothing with me across a border that could give a customs official anything to pester me about. This varies depending on the geopolitics of the region. I don't have to worry about wiping my laptop when traveling to Latin America, but I would absolutely do so if I were going to the UK.

I certainly would not bring any documents. If I really needed hard copies, then beforehand I would scan them and upload them to Dropbox, then print them back out after I step off the plane.

I'd bring a cheap burner phone and keep my contacts in the cloud, with a short list of essential names / numbers in my wallet. If asked about the clean phone, I'd just say I'm worried about theft.

That way, when I tell them I'm just there for a vacation, they have no reason not to believe me, and even if they didn't, no inconsistency to start grilling me on.

For hotel booking, I'd simply tell them the name of the hotel I'm actually staying at. If they want to verify, they can call the hotel, I am not going to volunteer a booking printout.

If you were to look in my car at any given time, you would find nothing immediately visible. This is both to deter someone looking to break into my car to steal something, and law enforcement officials looking for something to mess with me over. I hold to the same principle when traveling. Stay clean and nondescript when moving through dangerous territory.

I would take these steps whether I'm actually going for a vacation or not. I would never travel to another country willingly unless I could follow this protocol. It's just too dangerous.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#207

Post by outworlder »

pjc50 wrote: post #65
toyg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I have to say this: "second-generation" cannot be "immigrants", I hate this pseudo-definition with all its jus sanguinis connotations. Second-generation means you were born and bred in whichever country your parents happened to live in. You are from that country, period. You may or may not have a passport (because jus sanguinis is a terrible, terrible weed growing on law systems the world over), but you…

Sorry, that was part of the point I was trying to make but while using the language of the anti-immigrant campaigners. I've stuck it in scare quotes now. As you say, someone who was born in the country cannot sensibly be called an immigrant.

Like some anti-immigrant campaigner who is himself a "second-generation immigrant"?

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#208

Post by paulsutter »

shimon wrote: post #182
paulsutter wrote: post #178

This is a great article on how /not/ to talk to immigration officials, anywhere. I don't defend any heavy-handed attitude of the officers. It's just useful to understand the purpose behind the process. > the young immigrations officer at LHR was very inquisitive about this old friend I was going to meet while I was in London for a conference: Who was he? Where did he live? What was our relationship? My awkward answer…

And yet, when you place someone in a position where they are tired and nervous, this is the sort of behavior you get. Whether or not they are innocent. It's almost better to take as a cautionary tale about acknowledging your limits. Maybe asking for some rest and legal counsel could have helped. Maybe that would have angered them more. And maybe her responses were very poorly considered and antagonistic. That, combin…

Yes - it's a great reminder to request legal representation. And it's true, nobody is their best when exhausted.

But violation of visa rules on entry results in being refused entry, anywhere you go.

I'm not saying that's good or right, I'm just saying that's how it works. You're asking permission to enter the country, and their job is to confirm that you're entering legally.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#209

Post by 7952 »

jackgavigan wrote: post #7

Unfortunately, like other countries, the UK's Border Force[1] clearly has an above-average share of incompetents and bullies. If you give such people any power whatsoever, they will abuse it. Sadly, that's what happened here. The real problem is that there is no accountability in these organisations. Even if a complaint by Rachel triggered an investigation, the culture in organisations like this is to protect their o…

I wonddr if the whole "visa free travel" thing is the real problem. Better to make it easy for everyone to apply online before they actually board a flight. Ask sufficiently nuanced questions so that people know exactly what kind of visa they actually need.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#210

Post by frabbit »

paulsutter wrote: post #178

This is a great article on how /not/ to talk to immigration officials, anywhere. I don't defend any heavy-handed attitude of the officers. It's just useful to understand the purpose behind the process. > the young immigrations officer at LHR was very inquisitive about this old friend I was going to meet while I was in London for a conference: Who was he? Where did he live? What was our relationship? My awkward answer…

Immigration bureaucrats are just doing a job. It's up to us to change the parameters of their job. So far they're expanding into the actual country: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_3dDNPwJTU
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