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A deportation at the UK border

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Re: A deportation at the UK border

#61

Post by forgottenpass »

settsu wrote: post #51
jbob2000 wrote: post #16

This was her mistake: "..where a young man somberly asked me what brought me to the UK. “I’m giving a talk at a conference then traveling to see a bit of England. I have a letter of invitation,” I replied, confidently handing over the requested documents." Just say "A short vacation", whether it is or not. Don't give the agent any more information than they need. Throughout her entire encounter with the agents, she w…

So the victim is to blame for their honesty? How does this improve security?

It doesn't improve security. That is a different conversation. This about how to mitigate risk of hassle in interacting with a system that is broken (or, more depressing/honest working properly towards non-security aims).

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#62

Post by panglott »

DanBC wrote: post #47
rossng wrote: post #4

I am not happy about the continued existence of what are essentially rights-free zones at border crossings. Unfortunately, with the current political climate in the UK, I'm not sure the majority of my fellow countrymen would agree. And I'm certain Theresa May doesn't care. It's easy for politicians to ignore these problems, as they will almost never affect their own citizens. A similar situation exists with the NSA a…

Wait what, what rights did she not have?

She found out later she had a right to legal counsel and a hotel room. She wasn't able to sleep for 30+ hours.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#63

Post by jameshart »

petercooper wrote: post #8

There is no VISA you can get to receive an honorarium for speaking in the UK Potential international speakers should also be warned this is also true of the US - except for certain types of academic institution (INA 212(q)). The UK also allows it via https://www.gov.uk/permitted-paid-engagement-visa but again, only for arts or academia. A commercial conference doesn't count, annoyingly (or even a community conference…

Coming to speak on web animation, perhaps the magic word to use would have been 'arts'.

Clearly analogous situations such as performers coming in to play music on a stage, or actors to perform one-man shows, are supported by existing visas. Seems this is a case where the legislation needs adjusting.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#64

Post by sveiss »

bluehazed wrote: post #31
growt wrote: post #12

Just a small remark: If you're visiting the USA your fingerprints get taken every time (at least thats my experience). So that part of the story (an american complaining that their fingerprints got taken in the UK) is kind of skewed perspective.

Weird, I've literally never had this happen (Canada -> USA). I totally believe it, but now I'm wondering about in what cases this policy is applied.

Canadian citizens are exempt if they're coming across as a visitor. Pretty much everyone else -- visa waiver program visitors, holders of non-immigrant visas, permanent residents -- get fingerprinted at the border these days.

The program used to be called US-VISIT, and has now been expanded into something called OBIM. There's much more information online under the former name.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#65

Post by pjc50 »

toyg wrote: post #55
pjc50 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. See also the ongoing sagas of people being deported from Scotland (Brain family, Zielsdorf family). The policy is brutal because people demand that "something must be done" about "immigrants". The system is made ever tighter, but it does nothing to dampen the complaints, because the people who the rightwing public actually want deported are either EU residents or second-generation nonwhite Muslim "immigrants"…

I agree, but I have to say this: "second-generation" cannot be "immigrants", I hate this pseudo-definition with all its jus sanguinis connotations. Second-generation means you were born and bred in whichever country your parents happened to live in. You are from that country, period. You may or may not have a passport (because jus sanguinis is a terrible, terrible weed growing on law systems the world over), but you…

Sorry, that was part of the point I was trying to make but while using the language of the anti-immigrant campaigners. I've stuck it in scare quotes now. As you say, someone who was born in the country cannot sensibly be called an immigrant.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#66

Post by toyg »

rwmj wrote: post #18
jackgavigan wrote: post #7

Unfortunately, like other countries, the UK's Border Force[1] clearly has an above-average share of incompetents and bullies. If you give such people any power whatsoever, they will abuse it. Sadly, that's what happened here. The real problem is that there is no accountability in these organisations. Even if a complaint by Rachel triggered an investigation, the culture in organisations like this is to protect their o…

I'm never sure if Theresa May is evil or incompetent. It may be she is just incapable of controlling her department, although perhaps I'm being too charitable.

She's just the banality of evil. Her electorate clamours for ethnic purging and she modelled her political career on the "Iron Lady" image, so she wants to be seen as tough. If one of the most important cabinet posts were the Secretary for Milk, she'd insist that cows be milked 24/7, because that's what being "strong" means in that context.

Political elites the world over are the weakest in a century, so they react acting tough. They never actually have to deal with the fallout.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#67

Post by DanBC »

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #41

Stepping slightly back from this particular horrible experience, I don't understand _why_ this particular set of institutional rules are in place. Was there a thought that foreign speakers who were subsidized by foreign governments were inciting rebellion? Are there tax issues? Was this some big money laundering loophole or something? Is there a concern that people were using this as figleaf to immigrate illegally?

Pretty much any country has separate entry rules for people travelling for leisure or work.

She was travelling for work. She, and the conference, failed to get good enough legal advice about the travel requirements.

Here' the page she links to: https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/usa/work/six_months_or_le...

Read that and tell me you'd travel how she did without getting more advice.

> If you’re invited as an expert

> You can stay in the UK for up to 1 month without a visa, but you can only be paid to do certain things, eg:

> give guest lectures at a higher education institution

> provide advocacy in legal proceedings

> take part in arts, entertainment or sporting activities

> Check the full list of what you can be paid to do - it’s the same as what you can do on a Permitted Paid Engagement visa.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/visit-guidance

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#68

Post by icebraining »

tachion wrote: post #20

Not that I dont feel sorry for the author of the story, since this is terrible experience, no matter who experiences it, but as an American, a citizen of a country that has one of most restrictive and humiliating border procedures around the civilized world (try landing with valid visa on JFK as non American human being...) complaining at this sounds - well, odd.

Not everyone feels personally responsible for the actions of the country they happen to be born in.

Re: A deportation at the UK border

#70

Post by panglott »

mpeg wrote: post #45
jbob2000 wrote: post #16

This was her mistake: "..where a young man somberly asked me what brought me to the UK. “I’m giving a talk at a conference then traveling to see a bit of England. I have a letter of invitation,” I replied, confidently handing over the requested documents." Just say "A short vacation", whether it is or not. Don't give the agent any more information than they need. Throughout her entire encounter with the agents, she w…

It's not about lying, it's about giving only the information requested. "I'm attending a conference" would have been ok too, or even "I'm travelling for business" - I've used both in the US without the border agent asking any more questions. When you volunteer a lot of information you come across as nervous, and sketchy

This wasn't "her mistake", in the sense that the crucial difference "giving a talk at a conference" and "attending a conference" have meaning within the bureaucracy that is totally inscrutable to outsiders. She was being judged at a trial with secret rules.
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