People suck at technical interviews (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#61

Post by zeemonkee3 » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:29 AM UTC

mruniverse wrote: post #55

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's a developer, not a telepath. In tests like this you make it clear what's allowed - "use the standard library, no external dependencies" etc. Because in a normal working situation, his solution is perfectly valid. If I were interviewing him it certainly wouldn't be a dealbreaker. I'd probably want to discuss more about pros and cons of in-house vs using libraries, because you tend to find out more about the skill…

In an interview you are trying to show that you understand the problem. Not just get the right answer.

How do I know that? What is the interviewer looking for?

Maybe in company A they are looking for developers who come up with a solution on their own and don't rely on external libraries or Google. Maybe company B don't like developers reinventing wheels and prefer they at least research prior art first.

I don't know what kind of culture your company has, but at the very least out of courtesy you can signal what the requirements are in your test.

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#62

Post by gavanwoolery » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:32 AM UTC

chjohasbrouck wrote: post #58

gavanwoolery wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One great example is Haseeb, who spent two years of all his life programming. He now commands a $250k salary (which, I say more power to him for exploiting our current interview system). I don't doubt that Haseeb is an excellent programmer. But not everyone has two years to devote to mastering the interview system like him, and there are plenty of skills you won't get just by doing competitive programming. http://has…

Wow. I used to know Haseeb during his poker days 8-10 years ago, when he was still playing for dimes/quarters and we were all still using MSN. Can't believe I'm hearing his name again in this context, I had no idea he got into software. He's probably a bad example to make your point with. Haseeb had some moral failings, but he is truly on another level in terms of intellect/drive/vision, and the interviewers at Airbn…

Small world indeed. :) If it came across otherwise, I have nothing but positive things to say about Haseeb. Still, as with any coder I might praise, any human has gaps in their skillset - and I imagine Haseeb has a few; there is only so much you can learn in 2 years.

I say this based on my personal reflection, so I could be wrong. The coder I was 10 years ago was laughably bad compared to the coder I am now, and I spent pretty much every one of those years doing 80+ hours of programming per week.

That said, if I had to hire someone fresh out of college, or someone like Haseeb, the choice would easily be Haseeb. :)

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#63

Post by IndianAstronaut » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:33 AM UTC

lambdabit wrote: post #50

The problem with his interviews is that it's even more easily gamed. It doesn't really take a genius to go through their employment history and memorize blurbs that show learning technologies, applying it successfully while being humble and nice for one day.

>while being humble and nice for one day

Employers need to screen for this more. So many horrible people making it into workplaces and ruining work cultures.

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#64

Post by MrLeftHand » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:33 AM UTC

l1feh4ck wrote: post #60

> Don't hire for a fancy degree. There are some companied coming to my college for hiring. The first criteria they put was 70% aggregate marks (60% for some companies). I have seen people who doesn’t know how to write even a small program getting hired, while people with good programming skills are not even eligible to attend the interview. Going through 200-300 candidates in an interview might be a tedious job, I am…

Had a coworker from a university, didn't even know how to write a while loop.

He didn't last long to say the least.

Of course we will never know, if he could have been a good programmer or not, but it was baffling to see people fresh out of uni with zero knowledge.

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#65

Post by PuffinBlue » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:33 AM UTC

biztos wrote: post #33

PuffinBlue wrote: post #26

There needs to be a bit of a shift in understanding what 'category' of worker a programmer 'is', both by companies and more importantly by (some) individuals themselves. Programming is both technical and artistic. It's a creative endeavour that relies on technical skill to complete. The best analogy to another profession would be to those in the 'technical arts', those like photography, joinery, painting, sculpture,…

I agree completely, and this resonates with me particularly because I'm one of the many programmers also serious about other creative endeavors (in my case, the visual arts). But it's worth considering that in larger companies, management is often terrified of the creative aspect of programming, because it messes with their primary goal of predictability. Thus they seek, many of them openly and explicitly, to make al…

There's definitely a place, probably the majority, for programming jobs that are relatively 'turn key'.

There's probably a decent analogy in product photography. Unless you're going high end, bashing out well lit, well edited and well presented product imagery lies firmly towards the technical end of the photography technical - art spectrum.

Trouble is, many companies think the want these 'product photography' programmers but in reality they need the equivalent of 'stock photography'. And stock photography is one of the most difficult and challenging technical/artistic balances in the industry.

Both turn out similarly neutral end products that can be used almost anywhere and replicated, but getting to those final products requires very different mindsets and approaches.

That's likely stretching the metaphor more than it can handle but hopefully illustrates the point!

And as you mentioned, having that 'personal portfolio' that allows you to sell yourself (another important distinction I made in another comment) will get you the job ahead of someone who doesn't have one.

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#66

Post by Ma8ee » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:34 AM UTC

Scarblac wrote: post #23

MrLeftHand wrote: post #15

With one of many job applications I did, I received a small coding exercise before getting to the actual interview. It was about writing a small application in perl (one of my favorite scripting languages) to solve a problem. It was a number converter from arabic to roman and vice versa. Anyway I started by looking up a perl module that solved the whole thing in 3-4 lines of code. What was the answer? Sorry that's no…

I disagree. You need to be able to find existing working solutions and use them, sure. But you also need to be able to do this kind of thing yourself if you can't find an existing solution, because that also happens all the time. It's that ability that they were testing. That's perfectly valid. They should however have told you that before the test.

> They should however have told you that before the test.

He should have been able to figure that out before the test. It was a test of his problem solving abilities, not his Google-fu.

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#67

Post by gavanwoolery » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:43 AM UTC

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #52

k__ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It speaks for broken hiring when even skillers like you can't get a job. I always thought I just wasn't as good as I think when I didn't get a job, but I know your work and it is amazing, so hiring companies just don't know what they doing anymore

Hiring right now is a shitshow of old wives' tales, cargo-culted practices from big name tech companies, shady recruiters, mismatched incentives, interviewers who have no experience or training in interviewing, gimmicky apps trying to somehow gamify technical interviewing and endless whining back and forth on HN and Medium. I'm sure a lot of developers who are currently employed are put off applying elsewhere because…

Nailed it. :) Recruiting is now based on some unproven theories that companies utilize as if they were the 10 commandments. Written by some nontechnical MBAs.

We should unite together and form an organization that blacklists companies with incompetent hiring practices. :)

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#68

Post by lucozade » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:52 AM UTC

mruniverse wrote: post #30

gavanwoolery wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is actually a really great point. Its like hiring a writer based on their grammar. A writer could have perfect grammar but their books are boring as hell. Or even hiring a writer for adhering to the techniques of connoisseurs. The book "Ready Player One" was heavily criticized as amateur work (it was, after all, the author's very first book), but it nonetheless was hugely successful (and even has a movie in the…

Would you hire a writer with bad grammar?

The point though, surely, is that having good grammar shows you can write not that you're a writer. The corollary being that passing a technical test means you can code not that you're a good developer.

I think it would be a step forward if it became standard practice to expect an online portfolio of a developer's work.

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#69

Post by Angostura » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:54 AM UTC

mruniverse wrote: post #30

gavanwoolery wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is actually a really great point. Its like hiring a writer based on their grammar. A writer could have perfect grammar but their books are boring as hell. Or even hiring a writer for adhering to the techniques of connoisseurs. The book "Ready Player One" was heavily criticized as amateur work (it was, after all, the author's very first book), but it nonetheless was hugely successful (and even has a movie in the…

Would you hire a writer with bad grammar?

Perhaps http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/20/grammar-rules_n_476...

Re: People suck at technical interviews (2014)

#70

Post by d_t_w » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 10:55 AM UTC

mruniverse wrote: post #30

gavanwoolery wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is actually a really great point. Its like hiring a writer based on their grammar. A writer could have perfect grammar but their books are boring as hell. Or even hiring a writer for adhering to the techniques of connoisseurs. The book "Ready Player One" was heavily criticized as amateur work (it was, after all, the author's very first book), but it nonetheless was hugely successful (and even has a movie in the…

Would you hire a writer with bad grammar?

Depends what you're hiring for, grammar never troubled James Joyce.