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Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

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Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my raise was more along the lines of $140k. But I went from Shift Lead Walgreens to contract Web Developer at Google, so... there's that.

Yeah, im gonna call bullshit on this one too. You got into google because google actively recruits military vets, not because of the bootcamp experience, which might have helped get you over the hump, but unlikely caused it. It took you 3 years between shift lead and google. ~your lovely neighborhood ex-people search engine founder. P.S. thank you for your navy service (in all seriousness)

Google doesn't care about veteran status when it comes to their contracted employees as that pool comes from the ranks of the staffing agencies.

As far as the 3 years since Walgreens goes... - 1 year spent in college for CS before dropping out - 1 year spent self-teaching and working for a startup where I learned what "jQuery" and "AJAX" and "PHP" did =p - 3 months Hack Reactor - 6 months contract with Intel - currently at Google

Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#52
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because you can hire from the graduating class of Stanford, Berkeley, CMU, MIT, etc., and instead you choose a Walgreens Shift Lead from a "coding bootcamp." Sounds legit.

Parent is being disingenious. They held 5 positions (plus military reserve) over a period of 4 years between "Walgreens Shift Lead" and "Web Application Developer" at a staffing agency. I, too, got a six-figure "raise" from middle school to today.

Considering there was less than a year between AudioThrift (where I was making ~$20k) and ink on the Google contract... I wouldn't think it's all that disingenuous.

Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#53
Full disclosure: I am part of the instruction team at Hack Reactor. This amazing team that I work with are completely committed to our students, their experience and their success. I have colleagues who almost don't go home, who work weekends, obsess over how to help our students succeed. We lose sleep. We worry. Truth is, I find the tone of this article dismaying knowing what these remarkable people do for our students and knowing how successful most of those students go on to be.

Shawn responds with some details about recent changes we had to make to address, among other things, applicants figuring out how to game our admissions. For a few cycles there were notably more students than usual who struggled with the program, not getting out of it what other students do and who subsequently struggled in the job search. That placed a huge demand on instructional resources which has impact throughout the student body.

Whether those students got in by deliberate exploitation of vulnerabilities in our process (some did) or earnestly researching what HR wants and studying "to the exam" is immaterial -- they entered unprepared for the program. Regardless, they received the same world-class curriculum as our phenomenally successful students. I don't believe it's coincidental that the most vindictive account of a student's experience at Hack Reactor came hot on the heels of that challenging period in our history.

I do want to address a few assertions that were made that suggest a deliberate attempt to mislead readers. The Hackers In Residence are not Instructors at Hack Reactor. They aren't represented as such. HIR's are not intended to be experts in technology nor to provide answers to all possible questions the current students provide. Any instruction they provide is either ad-hoc coaching, whiteboarding collaboration, in the form of brown bag talks they offer or by presenting toy problem solutions in the morning.

What they are is a group of very gifted and empathetic engineers who are sharing their talents with other students, coaching them through problem solving, providing first line Help Desk support, pitching in on other efforts at the school while they continue their own studies beyond the scope of our curriculum. They are among our brightest students who choose not to go immediately into the job market where they can command impressive salaries but rather stay to learn and study more and to support other students. They're fabulous, talented people.

More specifically, HIR's are recent grads who understand the experience of the current students and who know from direct recent experience the kinds of support they found most helpful or most hoped for and seek to provide that support to students. Questions that are beyond the scope of their understanding are escalated to engineers (like me) on the Instruction Team. They are an additional set of eyes and ears that allow me to even more insight into the experience of my current students than I can gain on my own.

As to the lectures and the difference between the first half and the second half of the program. The curriculum is very specifically designed to develop autonomous engineers. It is WHY our grads are successful. They don't excel in the workplace IN SPITE OF that structure. We guide them more early in the program where they need more support and very consciously, over time, reduce the hand-holding in favor of their own discovery and collaborating with classmates to learn. Mentors and Lecturers continue to provide support and instruction as needed during the latter half of the program.

With respect to languages. Many schools teach more than one language. Not many schools prepare engineers as well as we do. Hack Reactor is not a Javascript school. We use Javascript as a context to teach software engineering. Our students often tackle new languages on their own in the second half because they are well-prepared and appropriately autonomous. We've had students and student teams use Swift, Python, Ruby on Rails, Rust, Processing, dabble in IoT, ... And HIRs tackle Scala, Haskell, and more. That's not in spite of the program, that's because of the program..

I understand that a critical reader will have to take my response with a grain of salt but I think it's reasonable to ask readers of the Medium article to do their own research and contact alums for direct feedback before drawing conclusions.

Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#54

(I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor.) It's always a bummer when an alum would not recommend the program. I hate reading posts like this and I'd love to buy the poster a beer and learn more so we can do it different next time. (Email is in profile!) Here's a bit of inside baseball: This post is representative of a troubled period at our school. We had a couple of overlapping key problems and recent alums have been less s…

"we charge $20k because the median student gets a ~$50k raise" Horseshit alert if I've ever heard one.

[deleted]

Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#55
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, much cheaper than a $40,000 4-year commitment (from a public university, assuming $5,000 semesters - which is very lenient).

That's been brought up a few times in this thread. I don't think it's a fair comparison at all. You can borrow student loans for college, but the $20k comes out of pocket.

You can now borrow for high quality, reputable Bootcamps. In fact, the lenders who do this are extremely diligent about researching our outcomes. They do not want to lend $20k to students to attend a program that doesn't have PROVEN high quality outcomes. Hack Reactor has demonstrated that we have those kinds of successes so we have a number of lenders willing to provide financing to our students.

Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#56
post #8

$20,000 is about half of what my 4 year college education cost (although it's more expensive now, certainly). That seems incredibly expensive for a bootcamp. I'm obliged to ask what on earth that money is going towards, besides directly into somebody's pockets. > Another observation, most people who get in, are already qualified people, with top university degrees. I'm afraid to ask how large their student loans coul…

When did you graduate? Between 2009 and 2013 my college cost was roughly $40k per year. This was about the average for similar schools (RIT). My wife went to a small liberal arts school during the same time and spent roughly $50k per year. $20k seems like an incredible bargain, but my view is probably warped.

[deleted]

Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#58
post #31

As an employer I'd look at bootcamp participation as a sign that the applicant doesn't know how to program. Just like all of Sun's nee Oracle's and MS's (well, and Oracle's) cert programs 15 years ago. If you truly don't know how to program but want a coding job, then here's a $0 class. Start with JavaScript. Why? The entire internet is based on JavaScript, it can do anything, it runs on any OS, and it's easy to lear…

Given the volume of applicants you have to sift through, I don't blame you for generalizing that "bootcamp == noob".

I know several people who had a CS degree and/or had been working as actual "Software Engineer"s for fairly reputable companies before attending a bootcamp. For people like this, there are several reasons to attend:

1) The same kind of reason why people do MBA's: you get a mental break, in that you do something very different than what you're used to doing, and then probably get to work in a more desirable city/company.

2) To learn things that were not taught in a CS program. At least as of 3-4 years ago, most CS programs did not teach you any kind of web development-- if you're lucky, there was a class on the LAMP stack, or you could do an independent project using whatever stack you wanted. Otherwise it was Java/C++ for data structures & algorithms. Going from that, to webapp development, can leave you feeling like you have no idea what you're doing. Especially if your coworkers aren't nice enough to help you out.

3) To meet technical cofounders. It sounds like nowadays some programs are basically letting in anyone with a heartbeat, but a few years ago at least, before bootcamps became "cool" or whatever, they attracted highly motivated risk-takers, many of whom had prior programming experience.

Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#59
post #28

(I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor.) It's always a bummer when an alum would not recommend the program. I hate reading posts like this and I'd love to buy the poster a beer and learn more so we can do it different next time. (Email is in profile!) Here's a bit of inside baseball: This post is representative of a troubled period at our school. We had a couple of overlapping key problems and recent alums have been less s…

So you were part of the group of schools that refused to agree to a transparency initiative ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11872261 ) but you think self-publishing your own methodology with zero breakdown of what your categories mean is just as good? Like, where are all of the grads employed by Hack Reactor to pad the numbers accounted for? What percentage of your students already have a CS degree when they w…

Just because they were one of the companies present does not mean they necessarily refused to agree to transparency.

Re: Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate

#60
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you owe the poster more than a beer

Seriously. The author feels as though they've lost $20k and months of their time, and the co-founder thinks the right response is to offer a beer and a chat.

Why do you feel like he is entitled to a refund?
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