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It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

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Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we read the same article? What is this condescending bullshit. Nobody is arguing these things CAN'T be done, just that it's too much effort on the web, and the only web devs that know the ins and outs of every browser enough to make it work are unaffordable and unavailable.

> Nobody is arguing these things CAN'T be done, just that > it's too much effort on the web, They're saying it shouldn't be done, or that it's possible and if you can't do it you're a lame developer. I didn't see it as condescending at all.

I read it as entirely condescending. The several "It's your fault" replies? Nothing but condescension.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#222
post #66

I don't think that's remotely true if you keep the responsive web app simple. YNGNI and KISS and what not. I've been doing this for over ten years. In that time I've seen large web applications built for under 4k; I've also seen massively overbuilt simple applications go for 50k+. It comes down to often how needlessly complex you make the stack. If you stick with solid simple guaranteed tech instead of cutting edge y…

I think the author is already addressing this: Yes, you can build 2007 websites much better now. They will be consistent across platforms and perform great. But my 12 year olds don’t want 2007 websites. They want 2016 apps.

I seem to recall the median number of installed monthly apps sitting at zero for some time. Are you sure that "they want apps" or is it just that they're using the same few apps and web for everything else?

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#223
post #66

I don't think that's remotely true if you keep the responsive web app simple. YNGNI and KISS and what not. I've been doing this for over ten years. In that time I've seen large web applications built for under 4k; I've also seen massively overbuilt simple applications go for 50k+. It comes down to often how needlessly complex you make the stack. If you stick with solid simple guaranteed tech instead of cutting edge y…

What would you consider the web of a couple years ago/solid simple guaranteed tech?

Rails and jQuery. I've had so much success with those technologies, it makes me weep to watch the HN crowd shun them.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#224
post #66

I don't think that's remotely true if you keep the responsive web app simple. YNGNI and KISS and what not. I've been doing this for over ten years. In that time I've seen large web applications built for under 4k; I've also seen massively overbuilt simple applications go for 50k+. It comes down to often how needlessly complex you make the stack. If you stick with solid simple guaranteed tech instead of cutting edge y…

With a little practice, you can do it with newer tech too... I've banged out several small apps using react+redux on webpack+babel, and it's gone really smooth and came out really light and decently structured.

Practice sounds like exactly what OP is trying to avoid. Also, you're talking about small apps. And also, webpack is the most incomprehensible waste of time that I've ever encountered in development. No hyperbole.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#225
At age 38 I'm a little bit of an oldster for this industry, and I remember PCs in the 80s. I was a kid but that's when I learned to code and I distinctly remember what it was like.

It was a lot like today: loads of fragmentation and loads of vertical 'silos' with their own peculiar way of doing things.

Until the late 1980s you had a million little vertically integrated platforms: Apple II, TRS-80, Commodore 64, TI-99, IBM PC, etc. Even within manufacturers you had major incompatibilities, like Commodore VIC-20 vs. Commodore 64. Those were almost totally different machines.

Then the explosion of cheap IBM PC/AT clones changed all that and killed all the smaller players. There was a brief period from about 1988 until roughly 1999 when we had essentially one platform MS/Intel. That was MS-DOS and Windows, and the latter would usually run DOS apps. You also had one UI metaphor: the mouse and the keyboard and the screen. You had some hardware fragmentation but if you were targeting OS APIs and not trying to be bare metal it wasn't too hard to deal with. You mostly had one platform you could target and get 90%+ of the end-user market.

No more. Today if you want that 90th percentile of the user base you have to roll at least three completely different UIs at a minimum. Either that or you go all-web, which as this author correctly points out is a major headache if you want something that's mobile friendly. We've had good luck with bootstrap+react but it is more work than targeting a single native platform. (Not sure if I buy that many native platforms are more work... probably depends on the stack.)

On one hand all this diversity is interesting, but on the other hand if you just want to ship a damn product it's infuriating. It's also true on the backend: you have at least six Linux distributions, Docker, a million different 'stacks', clouds like Amazon building closed mainframe platforms like lambda, etc.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#226

And if only there were solutions that made it easier to prototype and get your backend running faster. It could make it even cheaper to make native apps. end: self serving response :)

Hawking your own startup here doesn't make sense since the issues presented in the rant discuss user-facing product architecture.

It was done tongue and cheek. Sounds like that's frowned upon. Heard and heard.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also what I took from the article. Everything they're wanting to accomplish is certainly possible, but instead of just knowing the ins and outs of each platform, you have to know the ins and outs of each browser AND how each can affect the other browsers. Beyond this, it is clear to me when an iOS-minded developer creates a web app that ends up on Android. Each have their own specific styles, and this gets lo…

Not to mention the effect of time. The Web is not a stable application environment, and you may get caught in limbo, where the old way to do something is technically deprecated, but only one browser implements the new scheme, and only in nightly builds and even then only if you launch with --please-segfault-hourly. But using the deprecated API means at some arbitrary point in the future your working code will stop wo…

The Web rarely deprecates features. Browsers still have to display the Web of 1995.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#228

Comparing "responsive web apps" with native mobile apps? Really? What about cordova/phonegap/ionic? Don't blame the web because you made a poor decision picking your tech stack (or hiring your devs). Nowadays a single webdev can ship OSX, Android and Windows apps with frameworks like Ionic... in weeks. Starters (there are hundreds) help a lot: https://market.ionic.io/starters

Stuff like Cordova and Phonegap almost universally produce crappy apps. Doubly so if the person doesn't think they need to style the app for the individual platform, instead of just shipping the default (usually iOS) styling.

Shipping an app with one of those is almost universally saying, "I don't care about user experience, I just want to shovel something out the door as cheaply and quickly as possible."

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#229
post #65

I'd say it again: break compatibility and make an open, preparsed/compiled/binary HTML format. You'll get several order of magnitude speed increase and reduced memory consumption in browsers (parsing text is expensive). Something a little similar to microsoft .CHM file format. So instead of having a competition in browsers, you'll have competition is the HTML parsers that developers will use. No more messy W3C messy…

If we had started with a binary HTML format to start with, many of the progressive enhancements that made the web possible could not have happened.

Maybe. But maybe those progressive enhancements are not good ideas either. HTML just enabled to penetrate the microsoft platform. HTML was designed for static documents, not web apps.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#230
post #66

I don't think that's remotely true if you keep the responsive web app simple. YNGNI and KISS and what not. I've been doing this for over ten years. In that time I've seen large web applications built for under 4k; I've also seen massively overbuilt simple applications go for 50k+. It comes down to often how needlessly complex you make the stack. If you stick with solid simple guaranteed tech instead of cutting edge y…

I think the author is already addressing this: Yes, you can build 2007 websites much better now. They will be consistent across platforms and perform great. But my 12 year olds don’t want 2007 websites. They want 2016 apps.

To be honest, this sounds like something we should never encourage as an industry. It promotes inauthenticity and chasing the shiny rather than making substantive improvements.

I'm going back to my Emacs editor. ;-)

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