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It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

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Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#81
> Yes, you can build 2007 websites much better now. They will be consistent across platforms and perform great.

There you have it. Using bleeding edge features will create a lot of problems. First you need to figure out what type of users you want to target, PC users with 24 inch monitors and keyboard? Or 12 year olds with iPads? But still, for your software to really work across as many units as possible, and continue to work for years, you have to look what existed 5-10 years ago, and only use those features that are still standard.

I have a mobile phone that no longer gets updates. It is HTML 5 compatible, so it should handle everything that is not bleeding edge, but still many web pages, for example medium.com does not work!

I remember being a web developer ten years ago, it was your professional duty do make sure it was pixel perfect on existing GUI based browsers and even look good on the text based ones. I think web dev's today is too quick to jump on the latest and greatest.

If you take a look at the browser features that existed 5-10 years ago, it's way behind the native phone app experience! It seems browser vendors totally missed the mobile explosion, and only lately have begun to catch up! Considering how fast the web tech moves now though, the future for web dev looks bright. I think that in in 5-10 years, the mobile browser experience will be on pair or even ahead of native, at least considering dev experience and cross device/platform support.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#82
post #49

One app for iOS, one for Android, and I got over 90% consumer coverage However with a huge friction point of requiring users to download and install an app.

And not being searchable or deep linkable or shareable.

None of this is true. Universal links on iOS even allow the same links to work whether you have the app installed or not.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#83
post #53
post #33

A lot of the issues here are with mobile Safari. I agree it completely sucks just due to how behind Safari are with ES6. On the upside the work is complete to fix this in dev releases, so there's a very good chance that we're 3 months or so away from a large step change. I'm not planning on releasing anything in the next 3 months, so that timetable is okay for me, YMMV

I don't think that it's ES6 that's holding them back, there's Babel to fix that, I think it's all the browser vendors and the varying level of standards, different bugs and behaviors on every browser platform, plus there's features on Native platforms that are nearly impossible to replicate on the web. For instance `backdrop-filter`/iOS 7 like blurring wasn't possible on the web until Webkit implemented it, a year la…

And for good reason. I don't want random websites burning my battery for their "oh so important" background tasks.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#84

Ehhhh, I really haven't had these issues with any of the meteor apps I've made. Even getting swiping and full page animation transitions has been relatively simple. My experience is anecdotal, but I actually left being android developer to do mobile web and I've found the experience to be far easier.

  > Even getting swiping and full page animation transitions
  > has been relatively simple
This is telling. These things are FREE on native. Like no effort at all.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#85
post #23

"You want mobile notifications? Sure, but not on mobile Safari." You can do this with PhoneGap. "Multiple line ellipsis? Sure, but only on webkit." Okay, yeah, this sucks. "Consistent rendering size across browsers? Just fuck off." This is probably your fault. "We fix a layout bug on Safari and break something on Edge." This is probably your fault. "We change font size on Chrome and now all you can see on Firefox is…

PhoneGap? I thought the point was the original author didn't want to ship shit. PhoneGap apps are generally terrible. PhoneGap is the preferred solution for CIOs that want to save money but end up delivering a glitchy crap product. JavaScript isn't the catch all savior many JS people seem to think it is.

CSS and JS animations are children's toys compared to Metal on iOS. You can make a far more beautiful and smooth experience with native apps than anything ever done on PhoneGap.

You want access to a new iOS API on PhoneGap? You have to wait until it's public. If you want to upgrade your app for iOS 10? You have to wait until iOS 10 is publicly released.

Anyone using PhoneGap is almost certainly someone who is unwilling to learn Swift. Nobody actually thinks PhoneGap is better.. It's just a convenient crutch for those who are unwilling to invest the time to do it right.

If you have to ship a mobile app because of some executive vanity for a mobile app-- go ahead use PhoneGap. But if you actually want to write the best app possible, delivering a great user experience (as well as device experience,) then learn the real thing.

Also, you missed the point of the article -- obviously the problems are 'his fault.' The point is that all of those problems are more painful than simply building a great mobile app.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#86
post #53
post #33

A lot of the issues here are with mobile Safari. I agree it completely sucks just due to how behind Safari are with ES6. On the upside the work is complete to fix this in dev releases, so there's a very good chance that we're 3 months or so away from a large step change. I'm not planning on releasing anything in the next 3 months, so that timetable is okay for me, YMMV

I don't think that it's ES6 that's holding them back, there's Babel to fix that, I think it's all the browser vendors and the varying level of standards, different bugs and behaviors on every browser platform, plus there's features on Native platforms that are nearly impossible to replicate on the web. For instance `backdrop-filter`/iOS 7 like blurring wasn't possible on the web until Webkit implemented it, a year la…

backdrop-filter tends to go in my not-very-nice-to-have bucket. It's certainly something you can live fairly comfortably without.

Service workers are more of an issue - realistically if you want to build a serious web-app for iPhone right now you're going to have to build a shim around it for notifications and offline, although that can be quite small.

If you are aiming to provide a worthwhile experience to the users who will never install your app, or need some serious selling first then you need something on the web, so you are going to have a mobile site. Building a lightweight service-worker shim around that for iPhone and providing a couple of browser-specific stylesheets ought to be less work than full native apps.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#87
post #35
post #23

"You want mobile notifications? Sure, but not on mobile Safari." You can do this with PhoneGap. "Multiple line ellipsis? Sure, but only on webkit." Okay, yeah, this sucks. "Consistent rendering size across browsers? Just fuck off." This is probably your fault. "We fix a layout bug on Safari and break something on Edge." This is probably your fault. "We change font size on Chrome and now all you can see on Firefox is…

This is probably your fault That's the point of the article. Getting these things right on the web is non-trivial (and therefore expensive).

Ehhh.... These examples seem really amateurish to me. You'll run into lots of issues developing for the web, sure, it's not perfect. Especially web "apps" that need to work cross-browser. But the listed problems stem from not understanding your platform, not problems inherent to the web itself.

To make an analogy, it's like the equivalent writing a native app where input and UI rendering are handled by the same thread, and then complaining that input doesn't work during intensive operations, so javascript / the web is better for apps, and native is terrible.

It's also an unfair comparison. These statements:

> We made a bet on the web. Built a responsive site for desktop and mobile and tried to avoid the native app space (still are).

And then later

> One app for iOS, one for Android, and I got over 90% consumer coverage. I can even use a framework to share work between the two.

So originally with the web, they're trying to target Desktop Chrome, Desktop Safari, Desktop Firefox, Desktop Edge, Mobile Chrome and Mobile Safari with one codebase. Then they move to only targeting Android and iOS (native mobile only) with two separate codebases? They could have just as easily targeted mobile Chrome and mobile Safari, and shared 100% of the code.

I'm not sure what they mean by a framework to share work between the two. If they're referring to something like Xamarin, I hope they've at least tried it before assuming everything works great. They're very unstable, and you still need separate codebases for your views, typically more. Ironically, the most stable ones of these I've tried have been web-dev based frameworks.

tl;dr: "It's cheaper to make an app for 2 platforms than for 8 you don't understand."

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#88
post #23

"You want mobile notifications? Sure, but not on mobile Safari." You can do this with PhoneGap. "Multiple line ellipsis? Sure, but only on webkit." Okay, yeah, this sucks. "Consistent rendering size across browsers? Just fuck off." This is probably your fault. "We fix a layout bug on Safari and break something on Edge." This is probably your fault. "We change font size on Chrome and now all you can see on Firefox is…

> Stop trying to make the browser not a browser. Users hate when you hijack expected behavior.

Another point against making web apps: users have stricter expectations about them.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using the web means you bypass these other issues Not really. If you are doing anything that relies on device hardware, camera, microphone etc... then device type absolutely matters - and it's even worse on mobile web because you can't get close to the metal.

I would agree, the native interface with hardware would be easier with native than the web. But the testing issues across all android devices is still an issue that the web should not have to contend with. And the Apple store issue is hard to quantify. You just don't know if they are going to let you in. The web means you don't have to get the user to install the app. Of course if you use cordova or phone gap you sti…

  > You just don't know if they are going to let you in.
You do know.

Re: It’s cheaper to build multiple native applications than one responsive web app

#90
post #23

"You want mobile notifications? Sure, but not on mobile Safari." You can do this with PhoneGap. "Multiple line ellipsis? Sure, but only on webkit." Okay, yeah, this sucks. "Consistent rendering size across browsers? Just fuck off." This is probably your fault. "We fix a layout bug on Safari and break something on Edge." This is probably your fault. "We change font size on Chrome and now all you can see on Firefox is…

Did we read the same article? What is this condescending bullshit. Nobody is arguing these things CAN'T be done, just that it's too much effort on the web, and the only web devs that know the ins and outs of every browser enough to make it work are unaffordable and unavailable.

> Nobody is arguing these things CAN'T be done, just that > it's too much effort on the web,

They're saying it shouldn't be done, or that it's possible and if you can't do it you're a lame developer. I didn't see it as condescending at all.

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