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We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

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Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#11

Post by pvg »

gaius wrote: post #8
deng wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has no lineage in common with Linux. That's not what he wrote. In its initial release, OS X did depend heavily on free software (Samba, Apache, GNU, etc.), which again thrived because of Linux.

It would be more accurate to say Linux thrived because of them! Samba IIRC predates Linux too, as does the GNU project, Apache is based on the original httpd which was built on... Drum roll... NeXTStep. In 1990, before Linux existed.

Apache was a fork of NCSA httpd, not CERN httpd.

Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#12

Post by legulere »

I think the problem is that the FSF's definition of freedom still stems from a time where everybody being a programmer was seen as a realistic and achievable goal.

The actual situation is that we have two groups that care about different things: Users and developers.

Users' biggest concern is that the software helps them achieve what they want to do. They care about restrictions like DRM if it hinders them in doing what they want to do. The only way free software can help here is that other people (developers) can remove those restrictions. Proprietary software can easily offer the same freedoms for users.

Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#14

Post by Retric »

pvg wrote: post #11
gaius wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more accurate to say Linux thrived because of them! Samba IIRC predates Linux too, as does the GNU project, Apache is based on the original httpd which was built on... Drum roll... NeXTStep. In 1990, before Linux existed.

Apache was a fork of NCSA httpd, not CERN httpd.

NCSA httpd also predates Linux.

NCSA httpd released version 0.1 was June 1991. http://www.w3.org/Daemon/Features.html

Amusingly: http://www.diam.unige.it/informatica/documentazione/httpd_do... "3.5) Why doesn't NCSA HTTPd work on my Linux system? NCSA HTTPd is not crippled. Linux may be crippled. NCSA HTTPd uses a standard BSD4 and SYSV feature known as file descriptor passing. NCSA HTTPd supports both the BSD and SYSV style of file descriptor passing. Linux chose not to implement either."

Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#15

Post by iheartmemcache »

pvg wrote: post #11
gaius wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more accurate to say Linux thrived because of them! Samba IIRC predates Linux too, as does the GNU project, Apache is based on the original httpd which was built on... Drum roll... NeXTStep. In 1990, before Linux existed.

Apache was a fork of NCSA httpd, not CERN httpd.

Came in here to be that guy and make this comment, but you beat me to it. Have an up-vote.

I can't anyone is even disputing the fact that OS X didn't largely benefit from the fact that there was tons of GNU/GPL tooling out of the box that power users could use. Bash? GCC/G++ (before the clang/llvm migration out)? GNU. X-windows (granted I don't think many people used it post-Carbon, but I remember using it on my iBook 266mhz...).

\/ Edit: Mea culpa. IIRC you're right re: tcsh. I haven't used OS X as a daily operating system since first year undergrad (placing that at just under a decade) so afford me some liberties with details, kindly :)

Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#16

Post by dTal »

gaius wrote: post #6

Apple's OS X, which wouldn't be what it is if Linux hadn't already been the leading nix OS.* Well that isn't true. NeXTStep was built on the 68k from 4.3BSD which originated on the VAX. It has no lineage in common with Linux, and in fact pre-dates it. And OSX now is by far the most popular workstation Unix. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg

If we assume that the author is following the usual convention of referring to GNU/Linux as simply "Linux", I don't think it's unfair to say that OSX draws heavily from the free software ecosystem. Take a look in /usr/bin on an OSX machine and it's pretty much the free software kitchen sink. Emacs AND Vim even. The only reason Unix is popular for a workstation at all nowadays is because Linux runs everything.

Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#17

Post by bad_user »

legulere wrote: post #12

I think the problem is that the FSF's definition of freedom still stems from a time where everybody being a programmer was seen as a realistic and achievable goal. The actual situation is that we have two groups that care about different things: Users and developers. Users' biggest concern is that the software helps them achieve what they want to do. They care about restrictions like DRM if it hinders them in doing w…

> Users' biggest concern is that the software helps them achieve what they want to do.

There are two problems with this assertion: (1) users often don't know what they want to do or what they'll want to do in the future and (2) users don't have the education to understand the freedoms provided by open source / free software or lack thereof.

The situation is similar with automobiles. Until now at least people had the freedom to change the oil or filters by themselves or even do technical repairs. The worst that could happen is a void warranty, which is limited anyway. And people that don't have the technical know-how, such as myself, can go into any repair shop. Doesn't have to be an "official representative" of my car's brand. This in turn keeps prices down. I mean, I can tell you that for my Peugeot, where I live, the prices for both service and components for my car at the local representative are at least 2x or 3x bigger than at alternative and quite respectable repair shops.

Let me put it another way. A proprietary software package doesn't even guarantee that it will still be around and developed in 10 years from now. An open-source software on the other hand might not be maintained in 10 years from now, but people (like a government agency) can always fund further development, if they really, really need it alive. Open source never dies.

> They care about restrictions like DRM...

Again, users don't care about DRM. Because they don't understand it. If they did, they would reject DRM-enabled products.

Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#18

Post by nxzero »

As someone that deeply cares about tech & freedom, truly feel most techies fail to see that that majority of the world does not see freedom as a priority.

While I do not know the answer, I do believe it's possible to find one.

Focus on building relationships first, then tech.

Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#19

Post by simonh »

deng wrote: post #7
gaius wrote: post #6

Apple's OS X, which wouldn't be what it is if Linux hadn't already been the leading nix OS.* Well that isn't true. NeXTStep was built on the 68k from 4.3BSD which originated on the VAX. It has no lineage in common with Linux, and in fact pre-dates it. And OSX now is by far the most popular workstation Unix. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg

> It has no lineage in common with Linux. That's not what he wrote. In its initial release, OS X did depend heavily on free software (Samba, Apache, GNU, etc.), which again thrived because of Linux.

Solaris was a much bigger deal than Linux well into the OSX era. In fact if Linux had never happened Solaris would probably still be around and we'd be arguing about how much OS X owes to Solaris and whether it matters that SunOS predated NEXT but Solaris didn't.

Re: We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle for freedom

#20

Post by franciscop »

Esau wrote: post #13

I think that if you are concerned about freedom, then you need to use an OS that is not controlled a commercial entity. OS X, iOS, Windows, Android, ChromeOS, and Ubuntu all have issues; even though some of them are open source.

Putting Windows and Ubuntu in the same "commercial" bag is very miguiding...
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