Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards • Hacker News Board

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#61

Post by oolongCat » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

I come from an Asian country, we are used to bribes, crooked politicians, government workers etc etc.

To me the USA was the place where Neil Armstrong lived, it was the country that gave me so much that I was thankful for, it was a country where the words "Freedom of speech" ruled above everything. To me it was the country I wanted to be in if I had a wish.

Little by little, that idea I had of the united states is being changed, may be its my fault since I idealised the USA too much. May be its the news I read about, large scale surveillance, government officials who has no regard for civil liberties, people more powerful than the FBI, people above the law, power crazed security guards at airports etc etc.

I really really dislike this, wish I would once again get to believe that there is a place where people are treated right.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#62

Post by elorant » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 3:57 PM UTC

diyorgasms wrote: post #27

I've seen it said before and I'll say it again. Anyone who works for companies who make products like this in any capacity should be blacklisted in the industry. The missing scruples here could fill several large containers.

Yeah, sure, let's turn that into a war between ourselves instead of demanding better legislation and more transparency from governments. Blacklisting individuals isn't going to solve any problem whatsoever and we run the risk of alienating a whole bunch of people who will then might go out and do even worst things than writing software for questionable companies.

We need laws that prevent those things. That's the only way this can be resolved. We're a huge community with an equally huge influence and resources. Let's coordinate and use our power for a good cause, instead of resurrecting witch-hunting practices.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#63

Post by zacharycohn » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

maxaf wrote: post #34

jrowley wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What incentives do the banks have to fight on behalf of their customers?

Every time I've had a fraudulent charge on my account, I've contested it and had the money returned to me. I can only assume that in some cases the bank simply bites the bullet and writes this off as a cost of doing business. There's probably an upper limit to their general benevolence. Given enough fraud-like losses stemming from asset seizure, the reasonable action would be to simply block the charges before they c…

This is not a fraudulent charge, though. It's perfectly legal, under state law.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#64

Post by nappy-doo » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

Vraxx wrote: post #28

nappy-doo wrote: post #15

My understanding with asset seizure is that you can show why the money was yours, and it is returned. What happens to the 7.7% taken by the servicer? Is it automatically returned as well?

The state refunds it to you, the 7.7% percent is the fee the state paid in order to withhold your funds so conveniently. The trick is you have to prove that those withheld funds are wrongfully withheld (the burden of proof is on the accused in this case) without access to the seized assets. In short, the 7.7% is negligible because in the cases of this abuse, you probably weren't getting that money back anyways.

What a great scam!

I need a state sponsored monopoly where my income stream is non-recourse without chargeback possibility.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#65

Post by ahallock » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

stackus wrote: post #50

wccrawford wrote: post #16

This reads like The Onion. I can't believe they're serious. >"If you can prove can prove that you have a legitimate reason to have that money it will be given back to you. And we've done that in the past," Vincent said about any money seized. ... Legit reason? How am I supposed to prove where every cent came from? What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

You're never charged with a crime, the object is and it is not given representation. So there's no "innocent until proven guilty" for inanimate objects. Despicable, and akin to highway robbery in my opinion.

That doesn't make sense. Objects cannot commit crimes since they aren't human beings and thus cannot act, have rights, etc. Is this what Statism has come to? I know we have the whole corporations are people nonsense, but this is straying even further into complete irrationality. I know it's just to circumvent the law, but if they can create fiction like that, there's pretty much no law and order anymore.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#66

Post by brador » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

viggity wrote: post #31

jobu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed: "We've seen single mom's stuff be taken, a cancer survivor his drugs taken, we saw a Christian band being taken. We've seen innocent people's stuff being taken. We've seen where the money goes and how it's been misspent," Loveless said. It boggles the mind that this doesn't violate due process.

The despicable logic they use is that they're not charging the person with a crime (because people have due process rights), they're charging an inanimate object, the money, the car, etc. Property doesn't have due process rights, apparently. Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes".

How can an inanimate object be charged with a crime? It's inanimate, so by definition cannot make a decision...

Also, if they're confiscating assets, why not confiscate the car? Why just the cash/cards?

How do we get this absurd law overturned? What's the minimum required? Supreme court decision?

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#67

Post by brbsix » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

diyorgasms wrote: post #27

I've seen it said before and I'll say it again. Anyone who works for companies who make products like this in any capacity should be blacklisted in the industry. The missing scruples here could fill several large containers.

I've always wondered about the people engineering devices like this, the people at Harris Corp. creating Stingrays and other surveillance platforms, how they feel about their work. Listing individual employees might be a bit much, but we could certainly create one of companies involved. Unfortunately I fear it would be a long list.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#68

Post by WDCDev » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #38

PhrosTT wrote: post #9

What the fuck is happening to this country?

People want large, busybody police departments and they don't want to pay the taxes that entails. Police departments found a way to fund themselves without pissing off anyone who matters politically.

Police unions want large busybody departments and they don't care who pays. They just know that once a new police officer is hired SOMEONE will pay.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#69

Post by ikeboy » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

droopyEyelids wrote: post #47

ikeboy wrote: post #11

>The largest part that we have found ... the biggest benefit has been the identity theft, Oh, so if I have a card in someone else's name, you'll charge it, thus causing someone who doesn't even know about it to lose? Any lawyers here want to weigh in on whether this would be identity theft/credit card fraud/etc on the part of the police and hence illegal? Isn't scanning/charging a card without authorization illegal?

This is the most interesting quote. How do these devices help in the case of identity theft?! How can charging a card help either the bank or the account owner in the case of police apprehending a carder? The only possiblity that comes to mind is that the police empty the cardholder's account and then later return that money minus the device manufacturer's 7.7% cut?!

I guess if they bought prepaid card with stolen credit cards, then the police would empty those cards.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#70

Post by joe_the_user » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

jmuguy wrote: post #20

I think part of this is just shoddy reporting from a local news source, I believe this is tech they're talking about. https://www.erad-group.com/fci While the implications here are certainly pretty creepy, this seems more like something to use in investigations of money laundering, etc.

From your link:

"The ERAD platform will help you document every confiscated credit, debit and prepaid card, and instantaneously provide key card issuer information that’s critical to your investigation. And if some of those cards are prepaid cards, ERAD™ gives you the ability, right at the point of arrest, to determine the value and immediately secure or freeze those funds."

So these devices do let LEOs seize funds but only from prepaid cards, apparently, for now.