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Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

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Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#41

Post by Vraxx »

Zikes wrote: post #18

So we can't carry cash, because they'll seize that directly. This device could probably do some sort of run around the new chip system in cards. Bitcoin is nearly useless in the real world. So where does that leave us? Google & Apple Pay on our phones? At least our phones can be password protected.

Carry a credit card and pay that off monthly so as not to accrue interest. This way the only thing that could potentially be "seized" is your access to a line of credit. Now, I'd normally say that there is no way they could justify seizing assets that aren't even yours, it'd at least be entertaining to see if it did happen.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#42

Post by maxaf »

VLM wrote: post #23
jmuguy wrote: post #7

Are you required to surrender your credit carts, etc to the cops during a traffic stop? What if you refuse?

Its mostly for use against prepaid gift cards and the like. Also those cheesy pre-paid credit cards. Supposedly its already in use at borders. The news is that now if you get pulled over in OK the cops will now keep any gift cards they find. Ever wonder why there's such a push to get RFID everywhere? If they RF scan your car and find a card in the trunk now you're at minimum guilty of obstruction.

> If they RF scan your car and find a card in the trunk now you're at minimum guilty of obstruction.

Errrrrr not really! 4th Amendment gives you the right to refuse a search of your person or vehicle. Even if the cops do find something illegal during a search you've clearly but politely refused, your refusal will give your defense attorney grounds to ask the court to throw out any evidence found in the trunk.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#43

Post by protomyth »

viggity wrote: post #31
jobu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed: "We've seen single mom's stuff be taken, a cancer survivor his drugs taken, we saw a Christian band being taken. We've seen innocent people's stuff being taken. We've seen where the money goes and how it's been misspent," Loveless said. It boggles the mind that this doesn't violate due process.

The despicable logic they use is that they're not charging the person with a crime (because people have due process rights), they're charging an inanimate object, the money, the car, etc. Property doesn't have due process rights, apparently. Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes".

> Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes".

That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law. How we got to a point where things can be taken from someone who is not convicted of a crime is beyond belief.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#44

Post by technofiend »

Thus begins a new round of escalation and avoidance - cash is seized? No longer carry it. Credit Cards maxed? Keep it in a separate account and load only as required. In an account but you can direct funds from your phone? Hand that over.

At some point you just rely on biometrics for every transaction, it turns into an automated shakedown scheme or you just learn to avoid the state of Oklahoma.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#45

Post by dragonwriter »

protomyth wrote: post #43
viggity wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The despicable logic they use is that they're not charging the person with a crime (because people have due process rights), they're charging an inanimate object, the money, the car, etc. Property doesn't have due process rights, apparently. Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes".

> Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes". That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law. How we got to a point where things can be taken from someone who is not convicted of a crime is beyond belief.

> That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law.

It doesn't take place within criminal law.

(There is also "criminal asset forfeiture", which is a different beast, and takes place within normal criminal process against a particular criminal defendant: that is a part of criminal law, and its a lot less controversial than civil asset forfeiture.)

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#46

Post by protomyth »

iancarroll wrote: post #33

The DHS says this is only for prepaid cards, which are more likely to be fraudulent: https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/prepaid-card-read...

Which are used mostly by poor people since banking is often out of bounds for them. Nice we attack the people who cannot pay.

Sure glad the local police didn't have one of those when they were doing their first of the month car stops.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#47

Post by droopyEyelids »

ikeboy wrote: post #11

>The largest part that we have found ... the biggest benefit has been the identity theft, Oh, so if I have a card in someone else's name, you'll charge it, thus causing someone who doesn't even know about it to lose? Any lawyers here want to weigh in on whether this would be identity theft/credit card fraud/etc on the part of the police and hence illegal? Isn't scanning/charging a card without authorization illegal?

This is the most interesting quote. How do these devices help in the case of identity theft?!

How can charging a card help either the bank or the account owner in the case of police apprehending a carder?

The only possiblity that comes to mind is that the police empty the cardholder's account and then later return that money minus the device manufacturer's 7.7% cut?!

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#48

Post by noir_lord »

alistairSH wrote: post #26
rando444 wrote: post #8

You have to wonder how this works. Like how does the officer know how much you have and how much is 'appropriate' to confiscate? I wonder if it does a series of authorizations looking for some sort of upper limit to figure out how much money is in the account and then they determine what to take from that? Either way, this goes way beyond reason for what a trooper should be able to do on the side of a road during a t…

The officer doesn't have to know. Or care. He just takes every penny the system allows and lets you fight the DA over it at a later date. Even if the money is returned, it doesn't cost the cop anything to try. And if they keep the money, some moeny goes back to the police department.

Literally Highway Robbery.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#49

Post by protomyth »

dragonwriter wrote: post #45
protomyth wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes". That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law. How we got to a point where things can be taken from someone who is not convicted of a crime is beyond belief.

> That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law. It doesn't take place within criminal law. (There is also "criminal asset forfeiture", which is a different beast, and takes place within normal criminal process against a particular criminal defendant: that is a part of criminal law, and its a lot less controversial than civil asset forfeiture.)

ok, fine, but I think civil asset forfeiture in this context is misnamed and bs.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#50

Post by stackus »

wccrawford wrote: post #16

This reads like The Onion. I can't believe they're serious. >"If you can prove can prove that you have a legitimate reason to have that money it will be given back to you. And we've done that in the past," Vincent said about any money seized. ... Legit reason? How am I supposed to prove where every cent came from? What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

You're never charged with a crime, the object is and it is not given representation. So there's no "innocent until proven guilty" for inanimate objects.

Despicable, and akin to highway robbery in my opinion.

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