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Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

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Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

#1
I work at a large, non-software company in the US as an entry-level software engineer, where I've been working for a little over a year, now. This has been my first job out of college, though I did do freelance work for a few years prior. I'm very unhappy at my company, and I'm wondering whether this is due to the company, or instead due to my own unrealistic expectations.

In my organization at this company, each team is assigned one senior engineer, one or more non-senior engineers, and one or more offshore engineers. On my team, I am the only non-senior engineer, in addition to half a dozen offshore engineers. In the ~12 months that I've been on my team, 3 senior engineers have joined and subsequently quit, which has left me to learn the ropes of our (unnecessarily large and often undocumented) application and manage all of our offshore engineers on my own.

This means that I usually work significantly more than 8 hours per day (8 hours is the norm at my company). Lately, this also means that I'm usually quite a bit more familiar with our application than the senior engineer on my team. This has led to a number of hilarious situations in which I am at my desk, IM'ing the senior engineer what he needs to say at meetings, as those meetings are happening. I can't attend these meetings, because they're only for senior engineers!

Because I generally have no time to write code or do anything other than write e-mails and put out fires during the work week, I spend a large part of my weekends writing code for prototypes and projects, thinking about the designs of various parts of the company's application, improving our documentation, writing code quality guides, and coming up with various process improvements (e.g. ways to improve our source control policies, ways that we can improve our interview process, etc). When I show other people (engineers on other teams, management, etc) what I've worked on, I generally don't get any response whatsoever. This is problematic, because I need management to sign off on any changes that I make to our code-base or any of our processes, and without their sign-off, my work basically goes to waste. It's alright if none of my ideas get implemented -- they might be bad ideas (in hindsight, I know that some of them are!) -- but it would at least be nice to get some feedback, and I never get any.

To make matters worse, management doesn't seem to be aware of any of this. My manager has suggested that I try to take on more tasks at the next job-level up from mine, when by the company's own guidelines, I've been doing the job of a senior engineer for some time now (though I probably haven't been doing as well at it as an actual senior engineer would). I will admit that I haven't been doing an great job of making myself "visible" to management, but I think that I've been doing enough that they should have more awareness than they seem to have.

Other than that, I just can't seem to connect with anyone at work. I try to have conversations with other engineers about software (I've tried a wide variety of topics), and am generally greeted with head-nodding and a blank stare -- sometimes other engineers even make impolite comments about my interest in software. I've tried to organize meetings where we can discuss computer science topics, but management, while supportive of the idea, has warned me that there might not be enough interest to warrant having such meetings.

The general M.O. here seems to be to do just enough work to shift responsibility to someone else, to be Agile (with a capital "A") even though our organization is anything but, to schedule meetings (never try to solve a problem using automation -- meetings are the only way), and to basically maintain the status quo, even when doing so means making bad decisions that will cost the company big time in the future. By the way, it's not cool to think or converse in terms of abstractions -- only speak in terms of APIs, please (paraphrased advice that I've been given by management).

I've been trying to make the best of things: the attitude I've tried to have over the past year has been that if I can identify various things that we do wrong at work, and can come up with better ways to do them, then it's almost as good as working somewhere where things actually get done in the right way. Still, I'm unhappy. For the first time in my life, I feel like I might be depressed. I don't like waking up for work in the morning, and on the weekend, all I can think about is how much the next week is going to suck.

It seems like this should be a really sweet job -- after all, you can do what is essentially bad work and still get paid, the environment is laid back, and people are friendly, for the most part. But it's actually really frustrating. It feels like no matter how hard I try, I'll never make any improvements to the company's situation, because our organization in the company is structured in such a way that one single person (at my job-level, at least) can't really affect any change by him/herself. Thus it feels like the only way to proceed is to knowingly do bad work.

Am I expecting too much? Is this just how software engineering is? I'm grateful to have a job, and don't mean to be a know-it-all. I know that my company doesn't owe me anything more than a paycheck, but I just don't feel like this is a good situation. I've talked about some of this with management, and the response has basically been "That must be frustrating." I don't know many other software engineers, and didn't do CS in college, so can't reach out to classmates or professors for advice.

Please, HN, set me straight!

Re: Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

#3
I think I can comment on what people might be thinking when you show them your prototype: "will I have to maintain this?"

The only advice I can give is keep yourself available and keep looking for a job even if you want to work where you are at. It can't hurt to shop around.

Re: Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

#4
It is easy to feel oppressed in software development. I don't mean to say that people in software development are oppressed, just that it's easy to feel that way. One of the goals of software development is to create a product that people don't notice or think about (something intuitive). I have found that it is common for developers to feel that their work goes unnoticed at times.

That being said, I would recommend three things:

1) Try to focus a little less on whether or not you've been treated as fairly as possible and look for ways you can improve things for everyone in the company. If you leave, someone else is going to have to deal with the same crap. Is there a way you can make it better?

2) Talk to higher management. Try to be objective and avoid blaming. Just identify things in the process that are causing you to feel unappreciated and ineffective. Could they involve you in more planning meetings? Could you start holding trainings to share knowledge among other developers?

3) Remember that you don't owe the company anything. You should absolutely be professional in all your dealings, but a job is a means to an end. If you aren't getting the pay, recognition, or satisfaction you're looking for, just look for another job. Companies live and die. Employees come and go. Don't get too emotionally tied to it.

Re: Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

#5
Every situation is unique and every person is different. But I share my thoughts.

- The right place is the one that helps you achieve your life goals. It sounds like you may be in the wrong place but that doesn't mean you should quit just yet.

- Its probably a good time to start making friends at other companies. Its fine if its casual. You just need to start building your network. If you do this right you may never have to apply for a job or draft a resume again (I haven't).

- You are getting a lot of tasks thrown your way (which is great) but don't make the mistake of thinking doing most the work means you should be recognised as a senior. Thats not at all how it works. Especially in a corporate culture.

- Keep making your seniors look good. You don't want to be a threat to them. If their career advances they will take you with them. You want every to feel that they are more likely to succeed with you around.

- You probably have a lot of energy and motivation at this point in your career so it worth finding a place where you can better thrive. Before you leave your current position however I would be sure you have learned everything you want to learn there. You don't want to be a noob walking into your second position.

Hope this helps.

Re: Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

#6
I've been in your exact situation- very nice, laid back people, but who are boring and have no desire to really improve or change things. It sucks, I feel for you.

Remember to respect the balance. What if you were on the opposite team? One that charged ahead, worked like crazy and valued only the smartest? That might be nice for a bit, but eventually it would wear on you in other ways, you'd be tired, stressed and feel undervalued.

But even after respecting the perks, you're restless. You want to be on a higher functioning team. I say quit, and quit right now. Because right now you're in a place in your life where you want to work hard, study and grow. So go find those people, they are out there. But leave on good terms, because in 5 years when you want to focus on your family, or take up a hobby, or just chill out, you'll want this type of job, and you'll be glad it's something you can come back to. And then 5 years after that, who knows, you'll get that itch again, and once more your off to the races.

Re: Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

#7
It depends. What are you willing to risk to get what you may want?

You have only been there a year and you are eager and motivated. This is great to hear. It also sounds like you enjoy writing software, also great.

Here is what you do not want to do: become a PITA.

Stop talking to management so much (at least for now), they probably are getting tired of it.

Also try to fit into the culture where you work (at least for now).

And absolutely always ALWAYS be a team player. Even if the senior doesn't know as much about the product as you do right now. Offer your help and be nice about it. Don't take things personally, even if someone is being rude to you. Also try to look for people who you admire professionally and help them whenever you can.

In the mean time focus on your skills and keep improving your corner of the world.

What will happen, sooner than later, is that those people you helped will remember you. And when they are in a position to affect positive change, they may return the favor.

While you are doing this, make mental notes of where you want to be and definitely do shop around. By being aware of the real world situations, you'll be better equipped to recognize a better situation.

Best of luck to you!

Re: Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

#8
Hi, I made an account just to respond to your essay. Congrats, you made me get out my laptop ;)

- Feedback is hard to come by. I don't know your company, but I've known several managers over the years who are excellent people, fantastic engineers in their own right, and decent at organizing projects... but they have no idea how to give constructive feedback. Sometimes this is a personality defect - software isn't known for attracting folks with high EQ - and also it's easier to not risk pissing people off. Sometimes they're guilty of apathy or oversubscription. I think you need a mentor, someone senior who will actually provide this feedback, and ideally who has visibility into the work you and your team perform. They will certainly have insight and perspective. I didn't realize how valuable this was until I started with my current manager, who gives excellent feedback, and I can't thank her enough for it.

- Work expands to fill the time allotted, but work also shifts to the person most willing. If you're pulling those kinds of hours and your team is not, then hey congrats, you're the kid in school who does all the work in group projects... so, presuming you're not okay with being that person... "Why would I promote you when you're carrying the team on your back?"

- "How tall you are depends on who you're standing next to." It's sadly common for a dev to have ten years' experience and not hold a candle to another with two years' experience. It depends on what they did in those years! Folks who aren't still hungry to learn, while still competent, cease to grow. So for evaluating your peers, do respect their years of seniority, but take it with a grain of salt that those years were well spent.

- "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." Camus said that, and while depressing, the quote sums up most of software development in a nutshell to me. You have to value the process - which it sounds like you do - but with the knowledge that your efforts will never make the problems go away. At best there will be new problems. At worst you'll be hamstrung by the situation around you, which leads to the next paragraph...

- "Every group of friends has That Guy. If yours doesn't, then congrats: YOU are That Guy." No matter the context, don't be That Guy. If your senior engineers are so amazing, you wouldn't be asking these questions: it would be painfully obvious to you that you can learn a ton from their experience and example. That is, unless you're very self-centered and narcissistic, which isn't meant as a dig so much as a "know thyself" moment. About the time that everyone learns from you, but you don't learn from them, and you're not just there for the money/etc... it's time to go.

- Culture comes from the top. ICs can't change the culture. At least not much, and likely not outside their team. It's just not how big orgs work. This should be part of the reason directors and VPs are so well compensated: it's on them to set the tone, establish the expectations, and conduct the hiring to enforce those. I personally know five ICs, off the top of my head, who all tried to change the culture, were unsuccessful, burned out, and quit. Find the serenity to accept that from your perspective the culture is immutable, and either accept it or change gigs.

- Yeah, final point: It's time to go. The usual career building advice applies, but I'd also focus on meetup groups. Everyone at a Golang meetup group, for instance, likes Go so much that they sacrifice personal time to hang with others who feel the same.

Feel free to reply if you'd like any further clarity. Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Am I expecting too much?

#9
I like the rule of thumb when there's no one left to learn from in your job, time to move on.

Obviously don't quit, but you could start looking. Even if it's not implemented you have created new systems for your company ;)

But remember what you want is not necessarily what others in the org you are in wants.

Some people just want a easy job. It's not a crazy idea, if the company is not benefiting those who go the extra mile, why do it? Some people value life outside work more. And this certainly shifts a lot as you get older. Why work hard to make widget company A better than competition widget company B?

Level up jobwise, put you energy into a side project(part time self employment) or keep trying if it's important to you, maybe it's more complicated than it seems.

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