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The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

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Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#51
Doesn't all this seem somewhat backward.

There's this victimization mentality that acts like poverty is this absolute thing that is meted out like a cursed rock, outside the control and agency of whom it's been placed upon.

Why don't we have more discussion about the causes that lead to the effect of poverty.

It's really more productive to see poverty as being an effect, or outcome of other causes or actions. Change the input and get a different outcome. And at a certain point it becomes a personal responsibility. If you want to help someone else, great, but the two of you have to be pushing in the same direction.

And likewise, external conditions do have effects, if it comes to light that someone appears to be needlessly and negatively imposed upon there's clearly a place in society for discussing how best we can optimize everyone's external conditions. Everyone faces obstacles, but placing blame wholly outside oneself is always going to be a losing battle.

>On top of it all, if a murder occurred in a child's neighborhood — in an area of about six to 10 square blocks — their score fell by 7 to 8 points.

This is so ridiculous that people can make a pronouncement like that, thinking it's a reasonable analysis, or indeed the only analysis.

We know that intelligence is a highly stable trait. Meaning for intelligence to be significantly diminished[0] requires something pretty drastic, like a serious brain injury or some kind of long term deprivation. There is no reason to think someone being killed within a particular distance of someone would have any kind of effect. Do all soldiers come home as dunces?

Something seems to be missing from the kind of people that write these articles. Hard to say what it is exactly, a more holistic view, better analytical capabilities, less pre-conceived notions, intelligence? something...

If they had whatever missing ingredient, then they might understand that an analysis that stands up to rigor is something more like,

People tend to self-segregate along a whole host of traits[1], intelligence is a trait. The trait of intelligence is linked to a propensity for certain types of crimes. Murder among them, therefore it follows that the people that commit murder are statistically likely to have lower intelligence, as are the people around them.

>Oh, another thing: Living in these poor neighborhoods makes you significantly less happy, less hopeful, and less healthy

Oh, another thing: Any analytical mind of any worth can clearly see that the inverse has just as much going for it, if not more.

It seems to clearly follow that people who are less happy, less hopeful, and less healthy would make their neighborhoods poorer. How a focus on improving happiness, hope, and health? Telling people their predicaments are caused by factors outside of their control is the last way to improve any of those things.

[0]7 to 8 points is half a standard deviation, i.e. significant.

[1]See Schelling's Macro Micro, for some of the mechanisms involved.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#52
post #6
post #2

"Another popular left-wing idea is a universal basic income" UBI is not only supported by left-wingers.

Indeed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11837459 begins with Milton Friedman.

And I found Charles Murray's recent explication of the topic rather compelling.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-guaranteed-income-for-every-am...

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#53

This article is the biggest bunch of rubbish that I have read in months. It takes bias to whole new levels. People are starting to realize that "studies" are almost always biased in the first place and should not be trusted. Secondly, look at some of the examples used: A comparison is made between: > 25% of black kids had parents who grew up in the bottom two levels* and moved up at least one. and > 59% of white kids…

In that study, does anyone know what the total population was and how they define "poverty"? The numbers reported from the article seem to directly contradict the Census, which reports that less than 30% of Black Americans are in poverty, and that over 50% of Americans in poverty are White. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...

No contradiction. It's talking poor neighborhoods, not poor individuals. It's claiming that if you're black, there's about a 66% chance you grew up likely living in a neighborhood which is at least 20% poor. That doesn't contradict the Census data that 26% of blacks and 10% of whites are poor.

For example, using the Census figures, imagine the extreme case that blacks and whites lived completely segregated in their respective racial communities, and the poor within each race were totally uniformly distributed within their enclaves. Then in that case, 100% of blacks would live in neighborhoods that were greater than 20% poor - in fact exactly 26% poor. And 100% of whites would live in what would be deemed non-poor areas -- all white neighborhoods would be exactly 10% poor.

So what we're seeing in Sharkey is merely the secondary effect of a non-uniform distribution, not a change in the underlying poverty rates.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#54

One of the comments I get people who visit India (I'm Indian) is that how is there a slum next to a swanky high rise or classy residential/commercial areas (at least in most big cities). I don't really have an explanation for this (lack of space, cheap labor etc.), but the more I read about economic segregation in the US the more I'm convinced that the inadvertent mixed income neighborhoods in India could be a soluti…

There are housing developments around the world which intentionally plan for social integration. So, as you said, the fortunate better understand the less fortunate, and the battlers understand how others educate and motivate themselves, etc. If you're always around those doing it tough, I imagine it can be hard to break habits and improve your lot.

I've previously worked with one group called Common Ground:

"The tenancy mix reflects an urban living community where half of the residents are people who have experienced homelessness and the rest being low income earners. This creates the opportunity for friendship, integration and the breakdown of social barriers."

More: http://www.commongroundadelaide.org.au/what-we-do/creating-a...

They have some case studies as examples of what they can achieve:

http://www.commongroundadelaide.org.au/stories/karens-story/

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#55
Hmm, wait a moment.

59% of white kids moved up.

43% of white kids moved down.

Even accounting for rounding, there's no way to get those numbers. It's even worse in other places:

25% of black kids had parents who grew up in the bottom two levels and moved up at least one.

78% of black kids had parents who grew up in the top three levels and moved down at least one.

Those two groups should sum to less than 100%, certainly not 103%.

Also, except for the "Moving to Opportunity" experiment, most of this seems to ignore the distinction between correlation and causation.

This reminds me of the recent finding that 50% of papers in reputable psych journals reported mathematically impossible data. https://medium.com/@jamesheathers/the-grim-test-a-method-for... The more people start to dig in, the more the "social sciences" look unscientific.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who actually owns rentals in poor black neighborhoods, UBI is the most retarded ivory tower idea I've seen gain traction. All the black families on my street have section 8 vouchers, so they basically have no debt service. What do they do with all this free time? Deal drugs, look for marks to mug, break into vacant apartments, wake up at 2 pm, etc. Drive through my street around noon and count the number o…

What's the avg. yield on those properties? There obviously must be an incentive to invest there, if there's low income potential + lots of potential hassle with tenants etc

The higher the crime rate the higher the cap rate. You could outsource to a property management company but you get raped of your profits via collusion with contractors. If you can replace rotted subfloors, toilet wax rings, broken windows, and can shoot 3 inch groups at 10 yards then you might be successful.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#57

One of the comments I get people who visit India (I'm Indian) is that how is there a slum next to a swanky high rise or classy residential/commercial areas (at least in most big cities). I don't really have an explanation for this (lack of space, cheap labor etc.), but the more I read about economic segregation in the US the more I'm convinced that the inadvertent mixed income neighborhoods in India could be a soluti…

Huge disclaimer. This is how it was explained to me by my Indian host while I was working in India. I remarked to someone basically the same thing - not only was it incredible that slums - corrugated-cardboard-house slums - sat right next to the 5 star hotel my company put me up in, but they were relatively safe . One night we were walking through a slum because an Indian gentleman wanted to expound on my remark, and…

>He remarked that I wouldn't find the same type of sense of community in slums in Muslim parts of India, because their beliefs about their poverty and their lot in life was different.

Keep in mind he's probably biased in some way here.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who actually owns rentals in poor black neighborhoods, UBI is the most retarded ivory tower idea I've seen gain traction. All the black families on my street have section 8 vouchers, so they basically have no debt service. What do they do with all this free time? Deal drugs, look for marks to mug, break into vacant apartments, wake up at 2 pm, etc. Drive through my street around noon and count the number o…

Section 8 vouchers are a means-tested benefit program where the net benefit decreases with outside income, and, as such, create a disincentive (especially since people qualified for them also, nearly invariably, are on other means-tested benefit programs whose benefits also decline with additional income -- sometimes, in aggregate, leading to a greater than 1:1 decline in benefits compared to increased income) to pro…

UBI will only increase the amount of syringes I have to pick up in my backyards.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#59

One of the comments I get people who visit India (I'm Indian) is that how is there a slum next to a swanky high rise or classy residential/commercial areas (at least in most big cities). I don't really have an explanation for this (lack of space, cheap labor etc.), but the more I read about economic segregation in the US the more I'm convinced that the inadvertent mixed income neighborhoods in India could be a soluti…

"If you don't live around people who are less fortunate than you, how can you understand their plight and their point of view?"

Great observation. I suspect the reason this viewpoint is less prevalent in the Western "OR" compared to the Eastern, "AND", styles of thinking.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who actually owns rentals in poor black neighborhoods, UBI is the most retarded ivory tower idea I've seen gain traction. All the black families on my street have section 8 vouchers, so they basically have no debt service. What do they do with all this free time? Deal drugs, look for marks to mug, break into vacant apartments, wake up at 2 pm, etc. Drive through my street around noon and count the number o…

Section 8 vouchers are a means-tested benefit program where the net benefit decreases with outside income, and, as such, create a disincentive (especially since people qualified for them also, nearly invariably, are on other means-tested benefit programs whose benefits also decline with additional income -- sometimes, in aggregate, leading to a greater than 1:1 decline in benefits compared to increased income) to pro…

This is the thing I really don't get about UBI. It really, really doesn't remove means testing. Your tax burden is still means based, and that determines whether your ubi is net positive or net negative. So again, your net benefit decreases with increased outside income, because you're paying more in taxes.
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