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The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

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Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#41

Post by ashwinaj »

Swizec wrote: post #37
ashwinaj wrote: post #34

One of the comments I get people who visit India (I'm Indian) is that how is there a slum next to a swanky high rise or classy residential/commercial areas (at least in most big cities). I don't really have an explanation for this (lack of space, cheap labor etc.), but the more I read about economic segregation in the US the more I'm convinced that the inadvertent mixed income neighborhoods in India could be a soluti…

> why can't we have neighborhoods with multiple levels of housing options encouraging people with mixed incomes to be around each other Because americans have spent the last 60+ years working to "solve" that problem. May I present to you, the White Flight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

Yes, I'm aware of white flight. It's 2016 and the claim is that America has supposedly moved on, but it surely doesn't look like it. Or no one wants to talk about it since it's embarrassing.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#42

Post by dmoy »

ashwinaj wrote: post #41
Swizec wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why can't we have neighborhoods with multiple levels of housing options encouraging people with mixed incomes to be around each other Because americans have spent the last 60+ years working to "solve" that problem. May I present to you, the White Flight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

Yes, I'm aware of white flight. It's 2016 and the claim is that America has supposedly moved on, but it surely doesn't look like it. Or no one wants to talk about it since it's embarrassing.

Who claims that America has moved on from white flight? That seems like a far-fetched claim...

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#43

Post by zanny »

brogrammer90 wrote: post #22
dudul wrote: post #2

"Another popular left-wing idea is a universal basic income" UBI is not only supported by left-wingers.

As someone who actually owns rentals in poor black neighborhoods, UBI is the most retarded ivory tower idea I've seen gain traction. All the black families on my street have section 8 vouchers, so they basically have no debt service. What do they do with all this free time? Deal drugs, look for marks to mug, break into vacant apartments, wake up at 2 pm, etc. Drive through my street around noon and count the number o…

And they are hopeless because they are section 8 vouchers. There is rampant evidence welfare systems in place stratify society in the exact same way that literal walls built decades ago to segregate neighborhoods worked. If you are on welfare, you are operating in entirely different socioeconomic circles from people with access to capital and thus upward mobility.

If you grow up surrounded by people who subsist on poverty-wage welfare checks and you are literally isolated to that community because you parents are a part of it, how in the universe are you ever meant to obtain aspiration or escape it? There is no special snowflake effect here, people are the product of their circumstances (another important sociological observation the last two decades of post-cold-war-propaganda has presented ample evidence towards) and if you have a society built on a foundation of traditional racism and segregate people on that basis you should not be surprised when the members of that group lack strong work ethic or an attitude of improvement. They are put in a cultural cell with iron bars on the windows and while you can with effort escape it you are in a prison with all your friends, family, and everyone you have ever met, so when even given the option to escape, you often do not. It is why prison recidivism is so high with long-term incarcerated, and why particularly ostracized minority groups show less economic mobility.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#44

Post by jamiequint »

dang wrote: post #17
PoorBloke123 wrote: post #7

This article is the biggest bunch of rubbish that I have read in months. It takes bias to whole new levels. People are starting to realize that "studies" are almost always biased in the first place and should not be trusted. Secondly, look at some of the examples used: A comparison is made between: > 25% of black kids had parents who grew up in the bottom two levels* and moved up at least one. and > 59% of white kids…

We've banned this account. Single-purpose accounts are not allowed on HN, especially when their single purpose is to post political rants. If you want to participate on HN in good faith, respecting the rules about civil, substantive discourse, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com.

Did he edit his comment? He's obviously failing at reading comprehension, but I don't see how his comment is a political rant in any way. He's (incorrectly) pointing out Vox's bias in the way they present data.

Personally, I also don't trust anything on Vox after they posted this debacle of statistics last year: http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-sta... which attempted to make a point on why gun control was so needed while completely failing to control for suicide (the most common cause of gun related death) and trying to make points about how gun control lowered suicide rates (by gun) while failing to note that a link between overall suicide rates and gun control has not yet been established by any study.

While this particular poster is simply wrong about the data presented here, I would hate to think that anything that doesn't conform to a left-wing viewpoint on HN would be considered "political" just for that reason.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#45

Post by zanny »

twblalock wrote: post #39
hx87 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a take-my-money-and-leave-me-alone libertarian who values time and mental effort much more than money, I would love to replace the existing hodgepodge of a welfare system in the US with UBI + single payer health insurance.

That's not what would happen. Such a simple, elegant system would never make it through congress. It's frankly naive to believe that UBI would be implemented the way libertarians envision it. There are many reasons to believe that we would end up with UBI in addition to most of the programs we currently have. They are the same reasons we have the programs we have now, and those reasons will continue to operate in pol…

Lawrence Lessing had the right message this campaign cycle, at least.

> but that can't happen in a democracy

Is implying every variation of democracy has been tried, and all have proven unable to establish... UBI? That is a low bar to set for policy implementation potential.

But this applies to any government program proposition. Before you can actually propose to enact anything, you need to actually be represented and have power in your own government. That is the first and foremost problem in the US, as this Princeton study shows[1] (tldr, policy propositions in congress have no correlation with the will of the people, and steep correlation with campaign financiers will).

But this is not a UBI-unique problem. Want more / less free speech / guns / healthcare / infrastructure / military / welfare / social security / taxes / anything from the government? You might want to actually have influence with it first, which you do not have if you are not rich right now.

[1]: https://www.princeton.edu/~bartels/economic.pdf

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#46

Post by Swizec »

ashwinaj wrote: post #41
Swizec wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why can't we have neighborhoods with multiple levels of housing options encouraging people with mixed incomes to be around each other Because americans have spent the last 60+ years working to "solve" that problem. May I present to you, the White Flight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

Yes, I'm aware of white flight. It's 2016 and the claim is that America has supposedly moved on, but it surely doesn't look like it. Or no one wants to talk about it since it's embarrassing.

It started reversing in the 90's. These changes aren't instant. It will take time but it is happening.

It's not as tied to race anymore, though. Nonwhites are gentrifying neighbourhoods too.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#47

Post by thescriptkiddie »

brogrammer90 wrote: post #22
dudul wrote: post #2

"Another popular left-wing idea is a universal basic income" UBI is not only supported by left-wingers.

As someone who actually owns rentals in poor black neighborhoods, UBI is the most retarded ivory tower idea I've seen gain traction. All the black families on my street have section 8 vouchers, so they basically have no debt service. What do they do with all this free time? Deal drugs, look for marks to mug, break into vacant apartments, wake up at 2 pm, etc. Drive through my street around noon and count the number o…

Unconditional Basic Income is unconditional, not means-tested like Section 8. Section 8 creates a strong disincentive to work (legally) because you will lose your benefits if you make too much. Section 8 is not a program designed to help the poor, it is a program designed to subsidize landlords.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#48

Post by mc32 »

Snargorf wrote: post #29
mc32 wrote: post #12

I can dig it. Living in a bad neighborhood exposes you to an in-ideal living atmosphere. The people you are around influence you in many ways and one of those ways is the wrong way --not because people in the neighborhood want bad things for their brethren --but because their way of life and expectations impinge on the growth of the new young people in the neighborhood with respect to the wider society. Also, it's wo…

Actually, wealth inequality in the West was higher before World War One. They called it the 'gilded age' for a reason. It only got a lot more equal because WW1, the Depression, and WW2 combined destroyed most of the stuff the rich people had. Only recently has wealth inequality re-approached pre-WW1 levels. Source: Piketty.

You're right. I had conflated GDP with disparity. GDP in the 1910s was more or less on par in Mexico, Finland, Portugal, Norway and Italy. That parity has dissolved and become disparity in the intervening years. On the other hand, in the age of the robber barons, you had the lower class and the wealthy, with little in between, so those not at the top were not as unequal as they are today. It's my impression it was more stratified (into two lobes). And given most people were rural and there were few in the professional class, I think it makes sense.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#49

Post by mjevans »

While the data might show these correlations I disagree on the premise that is reached as a result.

It is not just economic stratification, but cultural differences.

Those who have great wealth, and are not celebrity, tend to respect education, or at least attending 'upper tier academic institutions' for their upper society connections. Among this group of people knowledge /is/ power and it is respected.

In economically down-trodden situations it is as if the population has been conditioned that they are beyond redemption, that there is no hope in enlightenment bringing them a better future. Maybe they are correct in that respect as greed is a major driving factor in politics.

I suggest that the culture must change to enshrine knowledge and intellect as well as society rewarding normal productive labor for a real solution to these issues.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#50

Post by zo1 »

dang wrote: post #17
PoorBloke123 wrote: post #7

This article is the biggest bunch of rubbish that I have read in months. It takes bias to whole new levels. People are starting to realize that "studies" are almost always biased in the first place and should not be trusted. Secondly, look at some of the examples used: A comparison is made between: > 25% of black kids had parents who grew up in the bottom two levels* and moved up at least one. and > 59% of white kids…

We've banned this account. Single-purpose accounts are not allowed on HN, especially when their single purpose is to post political rants. If you want to participate on HN in good faith, respecting the rules about civil, substantive discourse, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com.

How do you know he doesn't intend on coming back tomorrow to post on another discussion?
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