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Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

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Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#121
post #67

"since 2008 [...] battery energy density had a fivefold increase" Citation needed! In that time period, the highest energy density 18650 cells on the market have gone from ~200 Wh/kg to ~250 Wh/kg.

The article presents the increase in one of the charts. They're measuring volumetric density though (Wh/L).

Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2008: The iPhone had an 1150mAh battery and, according to anandtech [0], 284 minutes of talk time (3G) and 400 minutes of web browsing time (WiFi). It weighed 133 grams. In 2016: The iPhone SE has a 1,624mAh battery and gets 556.2[1] minutes of web browsing time on WiFi. It weighs 113 grams. Of course, I have no idea what percentage of weight made up the battery for either of these phones. I also have no idea what…

They say that battery tech has been improving at 2% a year. That would mean we should see a ~37% improvement between 2008 and 2016. Seems about right.

1.02^8=1.17, or ~17% improvement

Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly the same dynamics that relate cloud apps vs self hosted apps to reliability relates solar power and grid power to reliability. The grid is - for now - the cheapest battery there is, and it gives you immediate redundancy. It will be far more reliable than anything you install on your roof and in your basement on a per-case basis, even if a grid outage takes down your whole neighborhood, town, or even country.…

The thing is, the grid from the perspective of an average residential user is actually not that reliable. In many places in the Pacific Northwest where trees fall on power lines in winter storms the grid does not meet five nines reliability (52 minutes or less outage per year). A properly implemented whole-building off grid battery system and a few inverters running in parallel can be much more reliable than this. Th…

If you're still using above ground power lines for local distribution then that definitely would make a difference when it comes to reliability. Just like in Northern Ontario where our solar/wind homebrew solution was a lot more reliable than the local grid. Even so, in a developed country that's a choice, not a necessity.

Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but in 2016 we don't have to guess how many cars Tesla built in 2015. It's historical fact.

What is it? You could actually improve the estimate rather than /just/ pointing out that it has flaws. And your original criticism was vague. At least this one moves things forward. After a quick Google search, the number of vehicles Tesla sold in 2015 does in fact seem to be a bit uncertain. It seems they sold over 50,000 vehicles, but I've not found a more precise number, in a few minutes of looking. Sales from pre…

There is no reason to guess at these numbers OR to Google for other people's guesses. The sales figures to 5 significant digits are in Tesla's 10-K report. For example:

During 2015, we achieved significant efficiencies in Model S production and produced 14,037 vehicles in the fourth quarter of 2015. We began production of Model X in the third quarter of 2015. We plan to deliver 80,000 to 90,000 new Model S and Model X vehicles in 2016.

Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#126

Between this and the projected increase in PV solar efficiency, drop in cost and toxicity of manufacture... I don't think I've felt this kind of cautious optimism for a renewable energy infrastructure before.

Its almost like we're going to fix the climate change issue, slowly (ramping up quickly)....by sheer luck of technological advancement.

It wasn't luck.

The absurd amount of money poured into green energy the past decade has made a difference. Both government, and stock-market. Green energy is definitely riding high right now with easy money.

Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#127
post #89

I don't see how cars will have any impact on battery life. How many cars do we sell each year? Even if we assume 10% of cars are electric it is nothing but a drop in an ocean in terms of number of batteries being sold. I am unable to see how Tesla car could have any impact on battery industry in terms of economy of scale. Any battery based solution for homes etc. could possibly bring economy of scale into picture.

Your comment would be more interesting if you put some numbers around your conclusions. I personally don't know the current and projected relative demand for Lithium batteries in electric cars and non-electric cars.

Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy STORAGE is a huge bottleneck issue for anyone that follows renewable energy news as well Very true, but, interestingly, large-scale electric vehicle adoption may help this: http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/05/09/3775606/used-sec... as lightly used car batteries may cease being attractive for use in cars but be very attractive in terms of base-load storage.

Absolutely. It's all about the $/kWh stored. A "worn out" electric car battery might have only 70% of its cycle depth/capacity remaining compared to when it was new, but if the battery packs can be acquired for very cheap, that doesn't matter so much. There is a guy with videos on youtube who has purchased battery packs from crashed Tesla Model S and retrofitted an old volkswagon bus for 100+ mile EV range.

Yes. He also had some packs made from salvaged battery cells.

And a battery trailer, inspected by the DMV.

Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#129

I find it amusing to see so many people questioning why Tesla didn't release a cheap Tesla sooner. The answer is: They don't have the batteries to do that. That's why they are building the GigaFactory. People don't get that, on a large industrial scale, you actually have to think about supply. They think you just spend money and supply shows up because they are used to thinking on a household scale where supply is ge…

> Health Care, for example, is one of those things where, if you're not thinking about supply, spending more money just makes everything more expensive. If you haven't, I highly recommend Paul Starr's Social Transformation of American Medicine. The number of MD medical school seats in the US has remained at about 16k-17k for 100 years. https://www.nytimes.com/books/98/12/06/specials/starr-medici...

do you think that if there were 10x as many doctors magically hospitals would charge you any less for your stay? or that pharmaceutical companies would charge you any less for their drugs?

Re: Electric vehicle battery costs rapidly declining, Tesla cited as leading

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy STORAGE is a huge bottleneck issue for anyone that follows renewable energy news as well Very true, but, interestingly, large-scale electric vehicle adoption may help this: http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/05/09/3775606/used-sec... as lightly used car batteries may cease being attractive for use in cars but be very attractive in terms of base-load storage.

Absolutely. It's all about the $/kWh stored. A "worn out" electric car battery might have only 70% of its cycle depth/capacity remaining compared to when it was new, but if the battery packs can be acquired for very cheap, that doesn't matter so much. There is a guy with videos on youtube who has purchased battery packs from crashed Tesla Model S and retrofitted an old volkswagon bus for 100+ mile EV range.

I would like to know more! Is this the incident in question?

http://insideevs.com/diy-project-salvaged-tesla-model-s-to-u...

"Joe’s “donor” Model S will be brought back to life by Otmar in the form of a stretched Volkswagen Vanagon called Strechla.

The Vanagon will exist only on the outside. On the inside, underside and everywhere in between, you’ll find Model S."

edit: added more words

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