Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#101

Post by pyre » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 9:55 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #34

dragonwriter wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the homeowners want to sell to developers that will build higher-density housing on their land, what's wrong with that? Generally, not all of them do, which is why redevelopment usually involves use of eminent domain.

Source on that? AFAIK eminent domain for private development is rare, the vast, vast majority of the time developers just offer enough money to convince people to sell.

Not so rare that it doesn't have a Supreme Court case[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#102

Post by hx87 » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 9:55 PM UTC

ryfm wrote: post #93

Johnny555 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because they are so attached to their cars, and more density brings more traffic. Especially when starting with a low-density neighborhood that's poorly served by transit and everyone that lives there is tied to their car. Places like NYC, London, and Paris have great public transit systems, it's easy to live there without a car, but much harder to do that in spread out Silicon Valley, even if you live n…

no, i'm not attached to my car, i just want some privacy and a quite area. i used to leave in 3 countries, changed a number of cities (from 50K to 10M) lived in all types of appartments and i finally have had enough of noisy neigbours in the middle of night.

That's a call for thick walls (including/especially party walls, floors and ceilings) and triple-pane windows, not restrictions on density. Unfortunately, due to the real estate industry's fixation on square footage and granite countertops to the exclusion of any other measure of quality, that's not likely to happen in most places.

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#103

Post by shostack » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 9:56 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #20

baron816 wrote: post #9

Why are people so adamantly opposed to density? Well, I know the reason is to prop up the value of their homes, but if you think about places like New York, London, and Paris, that argument doesn't exactly hold. Those cities are incredibly dense and expensive, but people love living there enough to pay the high prices. People who can live anywhere choose to live there. I'm willing to bet that SV could triple its popu…

> Well, I know the reason is to prop up the value of their homes Yes, but not in the way you expect, which is why your comparison fails. In many cases, its not to prop up the market value of their homes, but the features of the community which supports the personal value they place in their homes: its "I live here, and I'd like to keep it the kind of place it is that led me to choose to live here".

For more recent buyers I'll bet the market value piece is pretty high on the list. If you bought in the last couple of years while things have been increasing, you want to see that trend increase. If suddenly prices drop because there's a ton more dense housing (which also impacts the other desirability factors of the neighborhood), you could easily be underwater on your $1M+ mortgage.

Given the amount of money at stake for said buyers, I can't say I entirely blame them for voting in their financial interests when the alternative might be a very bleak financial outlook, a decent chance of increased crime, traffic, etc.

It simply isn't a black and white issue.

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#104

Post by zippergz » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 10:02 PM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #9

Why are people so adamantly opposed to density? Well, I know the reason is to prop up the value of their homes, but if you think about places like New York, London, and Paris, that argument doesn't exactly hold. Those cities are incredibly dense and expensive, but people love living there enough to pay the high prices. People who can live anywhere choose to live there. I'm willing to bet that SV could triple its popu…

I don’t care what the value of my home is until I am ready to sell, and I don’t plan to do that for a long time. I do care if the qualities that lead me to choose to live where I do change. Additional density can drastically change those qualities.

I’ll admit that this motivation is no less selfish than the financial one, but I do think it’s different.

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#105

Post by zippergz » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 10:04 PM UTC

shostack wrote: post #103

dragonwriter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, I know the reason is to prop up the value of their homes Yes, but not in the way you expect, which is why your comparison fails. In many cases, its not to prop up the market value of their homes, but the features of the community which supports the personal value they place in their homes: its "I live here, and I'd like to keep it the kind of place it is that led me to choose to live here".

For more recent buyers I'll bet the market value piece is pretty high on the list. If you bought in the last couple of years while things have been increasing, you want to see that trend increase. If suddenly prices drop because there's a ton more dense housing (which also impacts the other desirability factors of the neighborhood), you could easily be underwater on your $1M+ mortgage. Given the amount of money at st…

I’ve owned several houses. The more recently I bought, the LESS I care about the value of the house. It’s just numbers on paper. Money isn’t at stake until I’m trying to sell, which I’m certainly not looking to to do if I just recently bought.

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#106

Post by disposeofnick9 » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 10:04 PM UTC

disposeofnick9 wrote: post #47

joss82 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean a RV? First serious question: how do you manage your social life?

VW doesn't make a big RV. :) The same as anyone else. It sounds like you're trying to imply something like stereotypes or biogtry. What are you really asking?

Don't like my answer down-voter? Too fucking bad. I'm done answering questions.

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#107

Post by xenadu02 » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 10:05 PM UTC

beachstartup wrote: post #6

i went to school with a lot of wealthy kids from the bay area. they and their families simply do not want to develop the area any further, in order to keep housing as high as possible and the area exclusive as possible. in private conversation they talk about it openly. personally i don't think it's much more complicated than that.

This attitude works right up until the kids want to start their own families... Then they realize they can't possibly live near the grandparents and having one home worth $1.5m doesn't do anything to help you buy two unless you're already making or have a lot of money.

You can see this split hitting out in sunset, as former NIMBYs flip toward pro-housing as their kids return from college.

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#108

Post by imaginenore » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 10:06 PM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #9

Why are people so adamantly opposed to density? Well, I know the reason is to prop up the value of their homes, but if you think about places like New York, London, and Paris, that argument doesn't exactly hold. Those cities are incredibly dense and expensive, but people love living there enough to pay the high prices. People who can live anywhere choose to live there. I'm willing to bet that SV could triple its popu…

You're presuming people like living in big cities. In reality it could be they are only there because of the jobs and the reasonable commute. Lose a job? Can find another one without moving. And of course, there's the night life, the concentration of museums, art galleries, performance arts, etc.

But most people I know still go (or at least try to) for their vacation to some tropical paradise. They would live there if they could. But most people can't.

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#109

Post by Johnny555 » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 10:08 PM UTC

ryfm wrote: post #100

Johnny555 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a townhouse with neighbors on both sides and never hear any of the neighbors (except for when their kids are playing in the back patio). Quality construction can go a long way toward giving you the privacy you desire. no need to separate houses by 30 feet of grass.

townhouse is almost a house in that regard, now try a highrise where you can't choose quality construction. once when i rented appartments on the sixth floor i had to call the police to stop an argument happening on the 4th floor in the middle of the night. and i'm not even talking about some kids showing off theirs 'sporty' bikes/cars at 2am.

When I lived in a high-rise, I chose one that had quality construction with decent soundproofing between units. I rarely hear neighbors in any direction (above, below or to either side).

Unless you're a prisoner (or someone else is paying for your housing because you can't afford it), you can always choose quality of construction -- it may not be where you want to live, or might be more than you want to pay, but it's still your choice.

You've just chosen to make a tradeoff and accepted the noisy building (and you've rewarded those that built the thin walled, noisy building by paying to live there).

Re: Silicon Valley's housing crisis, in one sentence

#110

Post by ryfm » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 10:08 PM UTC

hx87 wrote: post #102

ryfm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, i'm not attached to my car, i just want some privacy and a quite area. i used to leave in 3 countries, changed a number of cities (from 50K to 10M) lived in all types of appartments and i finally have had enough of noisy neigbours in the middle of night.

That's a call for thick walls (including/especially party walls, floors and ceilings) and triple-pane windows, not restrictions on density. Unfortunately, due to the real estate industry's fixation on square footage and granite countertops to the exclusion of any other measure of quality, that's not likely to happen in most places.

it might be hard due to HOA/condo rules; and if you rent the place than good luck trying to change anything there.

and given the way condos built in the US/canada it's just impossible, i was pretty surprised when i saw a six floors condo built with wooden frame, something like that: https://imgur.com/usO1i9r