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Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

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Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#181

Post by jacalata »

oceliker wrote: post #173
jacalata wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, cite? People I know at universities aren't on H1B visas.

https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/PUBLAW/HTML/PUBLAW/0-0-0... Relevant part: SEC. 103. SPECIAL RULE FOR UNIVERSITIES, RESEARCH FACILITIES, AND GRADUATE DEGREE RECIPIENTS; COUNTING RULES. Section 214(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1184(g)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraphs: (5) The numerical limitations contained in paragraph (1)(A) shall not apply to any nonimmigrant…

Fascinating, thanks!

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#182

Post by vitd »

dragonwriter wrote: post #179
vitd wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question - I don't in any way intend this to sound inflammatory. If you've been here almost 10 years and have set down roots, why haven't you just applied to be a citizen? It sounds like you want to stay, and frankly, it sounds like it would be good for us to have you. Is there something holding you back beyond just personal preference? (Or are you already in the process but haven't completed it?)

> why haven't you just applied to be a citizen? IIRC, an H-1B can't apply to be a citizen, you have to be a permanent resident to do that, which you can only do from an immigrant visa. The H-1B is a "dual purpose" visa, which is a non-immigrant visa that doesn't require you to leave the country before applying for an immigrant visa, but you still have to qualify for one of the immigrant visa categories and make it th…

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#183

Post by eru »

TrickzOnU wrote: post #141
eru wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Loosening restrictions on sponsorships would invariably result in a net increase in the available labor pool, which would put downward pressure on wages for everyone. The labour market doesn't work like that..

How so? Isnt this just a typical supply and demand issue?

People usually consume a significant part of their income, so they create more demand.

Also, aggregate demand has more to do with central bank policies than the real economy.

Yes, in each particular occupation, an influx of people willing to work for less might lower salaries in that occupation (compare game programing vs CRUD apps; or magazine journalism vs lawyers), but that doesn't exert downward pressure on everyone's wages.

In addition, if it's easy to start up new competing companies, the employers are forced to pass on the savings.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#184

Post by eru »

eva1984 wrote: post #127
eru wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An auction system would have far less uncertainty.

Big companies can afford to pay, startups are not.

So what? If big companies are economically more efficient, let them have the workers. Nobody should be forced to work for a poor company that can't pay up.

Plus what vostok said.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#185

Post by unclebucknasty »

bduerst wrote: post #174
unclebucknasty wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the immigrant needs to be paid more than citizens Not exactly: "You must be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher." [0] See [1] for info in your area, and you'll understand the potential for taking some latitude with this rule. > If you're going to propose that "loosening" the restrictions means removing this one rule... Not sure who is proposing loosening this one rul…

The point still stands that the immigrants are getting paid at least what citizens are getting paid, which means wages are not going to get driven down.

No. The point doesn't still stand. It never stood.

All else held constant, increased labor supply means lower wages for all. So, the prevailing wage goes down for everyone. Sure, companies have to pay everyone equally, so everyone just gets paid less.

It's simple supply and demand. I think some are taking these simple statements of fact as some sort of anti-immigrant rant or advocacy of the current H1-B policy. It's not. But, if you want to fix it, you first have to understand it.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#186

Post by unclebucknasty »

enraged_camel wrote: post #125
unclebucknasty wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't process my comment fully. I was referring to the downward pressure on all wages (and U.S. workers in particular), not those of H1-B holders. This (and my entire comment) was a rebuttal of the GP and should be read in that context. Having workers stay in the country without jobs increases labor supply, which means lower wages for U.S. workers, contrary to the GP's counter-intuitive assertion. It's simple su…

The original intent of the H1B program does not matter. It was created for a specific purpose but has since evolved to fulfill other goals. What matters is that, ultimately, it is in the USA's best interest to have skilled and educated people from all over the world to join its population and contribute to its economy. It is one of the mechanisms through which it can stay ahead of other countries. That's why the H1B…

What it has not evolved into is an unconditional, open door to citizenship or permanent residence.

Sorry, but if you want to fix the problems created by the program, then you have to scrap it and call the new thing something else. But, as long as it is tethered to filling specialty needs of certain companies as the core justification for holders being in-country, then you have sponsorship. And, with sponsorship comes the problems many decry.

I'm not sure why any of this is controversial. The program itself may be controversial, but simply stating what it is ought not to be.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#187

Post by bduerst »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #185
bduerst wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point still stands that the immigrants are getting paid at least what citizens are getting paid, which means wages are not going to get driven down.

No. The point doesn't still stand. It never stood. All else held constant, increased labor supply means lower wages for all. So, the prevailing wage goes down for everyone. Sure, companies have to pay everyone equally, so everyone just gets paid less. It's simple supply and demand. I think some are taking these simple statements of fact as some sort of anti-immigrant rant or advocacy of the current H1-B policy. It's…

It is a pretty simple supply and demand curve, but again you're intentionally ignoring the facts about prevailing wage (PW) and operating under the same misconception.

H1B visas are only increasing supply for jobs that pay above the PW, not "all" jobs. That means that there is not additional supply for below PW jobs. If anything, the PW goes up because of the increased liquidity for supplying above average wages. This problem you're trying to fabricate is precisely what the PW rule successfully prevents.

The question I think needs answering is why are you still trying to make this a problem? Who are you trying to convince - me or yourself?

Edit: I seem to have hit a nerve - You've replied three different times to the same thing and are incoherent at this point. I guess you're still trying to convince yourself there's a problem?

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#188

Post by unclebucknasty »

bduerst wrote: post #187
unclebucknasty wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The point doesn't still stand. It never stood. All else held constant, increased labor supply means lower wages for all. So, the prevailing wage goes down for everyone. Sure, companies have to pay everyone equally, so everyone just gets paid less. It's simple supply and demand. I think some are taking these simple statements of fact as some sort of anti-immigrant rant or advocacy of the current H1-B policy. It's…

It is a pretty simple supply and demand curve, but again you're intentionally ignoring the facts about prevailing wage (PW) and operating under the same misconception. H1B visas are only increasing supply for jobs that pay above the PW, not "all" jobs. That means that there is not additional supply for below PW jobs. If anything, the PW goes up because of the increased liquidity for supplying above average wages. Thi…

>the problem is you're still operating under the same misconception that all demand is met by H1B supply (which is false)

>H1B visas are only approved for the average or above average job wage

>Hence wages are not going to go down because there is no supply for below-average wages.

Wow. This is pretty tortured logic.

OK, what I am saying is that when you increase the supply of workers in an industry, the wages in that industry will go down. Whether it's a high or low wage industry, the wages will go lower.

Until now, I haven't been speaking to the impact on wages in other industries, however, I fail to see how decreased wages in one industry would not lead to a decrease in the overall cross-industry wage average. It's simple math.

In fact, the impact of higher wage earners losing a percentage of their income would have an outsized deleterious effect on overall wages vs. lower wage workers losing that same percentage.

EDIT: You've updated your comment three or four times, and you seem to be contorting a bit. So, I will just leave my comment as-is along with the quotes from one of your previous revisions.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#189

Post by unclebucknasty »

bduerst wrote: post #187
unclebucknasty wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The point doesn't still stand. It never stood. All else held constant, increased labor supply means lower wages for all. So, the prevailing wage goes down for everyone. Sure, companies have to pay everyone equally, so everyone just gets paid less. It's simple supply and demand. I think some are taking these simple statements of fact as some sort of anti-immigrant rant or advocacy of the current H1-B policy. It's…

It is a pretty simple supply and demand curve, but again you're intentionally ignoring the facts about prevailing wage (PW) and operating under the same misconception. H1B visas are only increasing supply for jobs that pay above the PW, not "all" jobs. That means that there is not additional supply for below PW jobs. If anything, the PW goes up because of the increased liquidity for supplying above average wages. Thi…

>The question I think needs answering is why are you still trying to make this a problem? Who are you trying to convince - me or yourself

You've been twisting, contorting, and re-editing ferociously in your war on basic economic theory.

And now, I'm making your misunderstanding of supply and demand a problem?

Oy vey.

Re: Judge sends two to prison for 7 years for H-1B fraud

#190

Post by unclebucknasty »

bduerst wrote: post #187
unclebucknasty wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The point doesn't still stand. It never stood. All else held constant, increased labor supply means lower wages for all. So, the prevailing wage goes down for everyone. Sure, companies have to pay everyone equally, so everyone just gets paid less. It's simple supply and demand. I think some are taking these simple statements of fact as some sort of anti-immigrant rant or advocacy of the current H1-B policy. It's…

It is a pretty simple supply and demand curve, but again you're intentionally ignoring the facts about prevailing wage (PW) and operating under the same misconception. H1B visas are only increasing supply for jobs that pay above the PW, not "all" jobs. That means that there is not additional supply for below PW jobs. If anything, the PW goes up because of the increased liquidity for supplying above average wages. Thi…

>you're intentionally ignoring the facts about prevailing wage (PW)

>H1B visas are only increasing supply for jobs that pay above the PW, not "all" jobs

Wait, I think I see part of what's going on here: you're completely confused about how the term "prevailing wage" plays into this context.

Look up what the requirement really means. It's linked in one of my comments above.

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