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Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

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Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#121

Going to be a bit flippant here, but if I sold somebody a $40 used printer and they mugged me using the courts for $30,000, I would seriously consider murder to be a viable option towards resolution. Good on this guy for keeping his wits about him through all this. Guy probably needs a long, relaxing vacation.

That is a very legitimate and real risk that zavodnik should take into account. If he got a judgment of $600,000 against me, causing me to lose my business and my home... I'd seriously be weighing pros and cons of sacrificing my freedom in order to rid the earth of this scum.

I'm sure many people get away with perfect murders every day.

People dying due to a malfunctioning car or some other kind of unlucky event ... I bet there's a lot of clever and quiet murder that goes on in the world with a plausible deniability, alibis and everything else set up.

The murderer carefully covers up evidence of sabotage or malice and the victim succumbs. People think "oh my, what a tragic accident" and regretfully move on in life - never being the wiser.

Probably every day.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the intimidation is to encourage him to pick softer targets. If he insists on continuing to pick on me, then I will escalate, making his life a living hell. He lives somewhere, he works somewhere, everybody has weak points that you can exploit. Eventually he'll say 'uncle', it's just a matter of when. If he's smart he'll do it before his wife's car reeks of fish. (I will have already 'fished' his car so…

The guy has devoted his life to harassing people through litigation. I assume it's profitable enough to keep him in beer & Skittles. Your plan is to become an even more dedicated troll than he is, but doing direct intimidation and violence instead of legal harassment? Sounds like a good way to get a felony conviction.

> The guy has devoted his life to harassing people through litigation.

Exactly. He's probably not that well-versed in physical security. Maybe he's got a gun he shoots once in awhile, that's probably going to be the extent of his precautions. He's not going to be some unassailable hermit with aggressively unreasonable defenses. Guys like that are too busy doing that to earn law degrees.

So I can learn how to effectively harass him faster than he's going to be able to learn how to effectively defend himself. He might be able to win a judgment against me, but not before I've reduced his life to a shambles.

John Boyd, considered by many to be the finest military strategist since Sun Tzu, invented something called the OODA loop. Essentially, the faster you can react and respond to opposing threats, the more control you can exert over the terrain, the greater command you have over the outcome of the battle.

Winning is just the start. John Boyd was one of the greatest pilots who ever lived, and he didn't just beat you in simulated air combat, he utterly trounced you in a way that left no doubt.

If faced with somebody seriously threatening my lifestyle, my secret weapon isn't going to be my willingness to fight dirtier, it's the fact that my 'weapons' work faster than his. The first intimidation attempt is going to communicate, in a way that's absolutely impossible to mistake, that we're not just playing law here. The pen might be mightier than the sword, but only because it's backed up by guys with swords. If you don't have any of those, then you're going to lose, and he won't until he wins his case.

The communication here will be calculated to be overwhelming and total, yet breaking only the minimum of laws. I'd trade a criminal case for assault, the state is going to be more reasonable than this asshole is, over what was described in the article.

If he doesn't go away, then that means I failed and I need to know why. I will have already considered the failure modes as a part of planning the initial intervention. Future interventions will be carefully orchestrated to hit him hard where it hurts while causing a minimum amount of attention-grabbing collateral damage. The idea is that if he complains to law enforcement, they won't have much to prosecute me with. (faced with this, I'll absolutely start making some cop friends, guaranteed they're going to hate him more than they'll hate me. Their input on how to resolve this would be very welcome)

I don't have to actually break laws in order to convey the fact that I am not someone to be fucked with. I can attenuate my response such that likely reprisals are easier to deal with than the actions they were intending to deter.

The idea though, is that he just finds a softer target.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#124

Would be nice to have a 'loser pays' court system for civil trials. These kinds of trolls would go away quickly.

'loser pays' has a couple disadvantages: * It encourages people to pick the best, most expensive lawyer in town for every case no matter the expense, because your opponent will be picking up the tab. * It discourages people from using the courts to resolve their disputes, which means people without resources tend not to get any justice. If, say, your landlord steals your $1500 security deposit for no good reason, are…

>> If, say, your landlord steals your $1500 security deposit for no good reason, are you really willing to risk $5000 in lawyer's fees over $1500?

Where I live (Ontario, Canada), the upper limit of small claims court is $25K ($19.5K USD), so you wouldn't necessarily be required to have a lawyer to sue.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#125

If Trump was president this guy would never have gotten into this country in the first place.

While there are certain things about Trump that are worth admiring, one character flaw of his is that he does seem to routinely file a lot of petty lawsuits himself.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point that this worthless-to-society A-hole gets let into this country and then completely exploits our legal system while providing nothing of value to anybody. This is exactly the type of scum that needs to be kept out of here.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#126

Going to be a bit flippant here, but if I sold somebody a $40 used printer and they mugged me using the courts for $30,000, I would seriously consider murder to be a viable option towards resolution. Good on this guy for keeping his wits about him through all this. Guy probably needs a long, relaxing vacation.

I absolutely would lose my cool in this situation.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#127

Had this been me, at some point I'd have driven to the bar, and asked the biggest guys I could find if they'd take $500 to show up at the guy's house and scare the living crap out of him. Escalate accordingly. There aren't that many situations left in this country that call for intimidation / violence, but malicious litigation is one of them.

I've actually done similar things to that, many times. I come from "salt of the Earth" folks like you describe. I'm a programmer and all around nice guy, I hold doors for folks. I'll walk out of my way to go open the door for you if your hands are full everytime. And just last night a drunk driver ran into a parked car outside, it wasn't one of mine but I went out and took photos of everything for whoevers car it was…

> we blasted in turning it upside down searching the apartment for the TV.

Wait, so the occupants hadn't taken your TV, but because they didn't snitch, it was OK to enter their house and turn it upside down??

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#128
post #106

Does it help to have a generic boilerplate contract (jurisdiction-wise) signed by both buyer & seller for such transactions, where the buyer would sign that they have inspected the item to their knowledge and assume full responsibility of the purchase, and that they won't hold the seller responsible for blah blah. At the same time, the seller assumes that they have given up ownership of the said item for whatever mon…

I rarely use Craigslist, as it's a cesspool of fraud. But when I sell used stuff online, I lost the terms as "As is" and don't make representations as to working condition.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've actually done similar things to that, many times. I come from "salt of the Earth" folks like you describe. I'm a programmer and all around nice guy, I hold doors for folks. I'll walk out of my way to go open the door for you if your hands are full everytime. And just last night a drunk driver ran into a parked car outside, it wasn't one of mine but I went out and took photos of everything for whoevers car it was…

> we blasted in turning it upside down searching the apartment for the TV. Wait, so the occupants hadn't taken your TV, but because they didn't snitch, it was OK to enter their house and turn it upside down??

I don't know their exact involvement, but they were involved. Did they help carry it out? I don't have the play by play. It wasn't a court case and I didn't care. The guys who drove off with it it were staying at their place that night. I knew it was one of two groups of folks or all of them at the house that evening. So I knew damn well I had the right people who could get the situation resolved in an efficient manner.

You're right they didn't snitch, amazingly. They thought they were tough guys. Maybe even as they were beaten to their knees? For the record, they weren't harmed until they pulled a gun out. But they were going to snitch eventually whether they thought they were going to or not.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#130

Under a sensible legal system, this is a crime. It's called "barratry": filing baseless lawsuits in order to harass or to extract a settlement. In most US jurisdictions, however, it's not legally recognized as a crime, and so it's widespread. From a defendant's point of view, however, it's basically equivalent to getting mugged.

Which "sensible legal system[s]" are these, and which ones punish plaintiffs for it rather than lawyers? Edit: I originally said "punish defendants ", but meant plaintiffs.

He represents himself, there is no lawyer to punish.
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